I was just about to make a list of downsides but you did it for me! I agree it’s not a false choice, and at the city level can be incorporated well into programming. But my main beef with heavy programming and norms is that giving is actually what made me disengage with the community many years ago and I only re-engaged because of its renewed focus on careers/more of a feeling of movement. A bunch of people randomly coming together and donating their money isn’t as compelling when they lack coordination about who’s giving what and where. I don’t see a bunch of giving folks networking with other giving folks about where they’re donating or coordinated efforts on this. But I DO see career folks trying to actively figure out where the career bottlenecks are and funnel people into those positions. I suppose career building feels much more like a team sport and giving feels more like getting a bunch of people together who enjoy solitaire. Which is fine and which has a place!
But I think giving programming is fact dependent and makes more sense for different demographics and at different times than others. A city like New York or London probably has a lot of people who have careers they like and don’t want to switch but are interested in EA. The number of such people (along with how old most people in the city are) should drive giving programming. I agree that giving at unis is much trickier.
I also highly value EA becoming accessible to low-income folks, and as someone who was low-income, the giving programming at my uni group is what emphatically made me disengage with the community for a few years. I felt like the people were naive and insensitive to low-income realities or it just wasn’t a space meant for low-income people. I only came back because of longtermism. I don’t think this is something a training can solve. So main point: incorporation of giving is good but highly fact-dependent and downsides should be considered.
Thanks for this Bridges, and I’m sorry you had a negative experience with giving. It’s definitely a positive that EA has broader programming now and I agree that there is a real danger of alienating people who come from less affluent backgrounds. I’m really delighted that you’ve found a way back to EA now :-)
A couple of points: I’m not sure I agree that giving isn’t a team sport—Giving What We Can and One for the World both see a lot of engagement in our communities, from meet ups to webinars to socials.
I think our point is that it’s a shame to neglect giving entirely. As you say, it can often be part of the menu of EA without significant costs to other aspects; and while you were really inspired by longtermism and careers advice, thousands of people have presumably been inspired by Giving What We Can and One for the World when they’ve taken our pledges.
There seems to be good counter-evidence that talking to students about giving isn’t a good idea at all—it’s been done successfully in so many places for so long within EA and in so many other social movements. Tactics like future-dated donations, pledges that don’t start immediately or focussing on trivial amounts while you’re still studying can all help. But doing this sensitively is really important and that’s part of why we’re trying to offer training and resources!
Anyway, in summary, I’m really pleased you’re back in EA; and I hope we can mitigate these risks well going forward.
I was just about to make a list of downsides but you did it for me! I agree it’s not a false choice, and at the city level can be incorporated well into programming. But my main beef with heavy programming and norms is that giving is actually what made me disengage with the community many years ago and I only re-engaged because of its renewed focus on careers/more of a feeling of movement. A bunch of people randomly coming together and donating their money isn’t as compelling when they lack coordination about who’s giving what and where. I don’t see a bunch of giving folks networking with other giving folks about where they’re donating or coordinated efforts on this. But I DO see career folks trying to actively figure out where the career bottlenecks are and funnel people into those positions. I suppose career building feels much more like a team sport and giving feels more like getting a bunch of people together who enjoy solitaire. Which is fine and which has a place!
But I think giving programming is fact dependent and makes more sense for different demographics and at different times than others. A city like New York or London probably has a lot of people who have careers they like and don’t want to switch but are interested in EA. The number of such people (along with how old most people in the city are) should drive giving programming. I agree that giving at unis is much trickier.
I also highly value EA becoming accessible to low-income folks, and as someone who was low-income, the giving programming at my uni group is what emphatically made me disengage with the community for a few years. I felt like the people were naive and insensitive to low-income realities or it just wasn’t a space meant for low-income people. I only came back because of longtermism. I don’t think this is something a training can solve. So main point: incorporation of giving is good but highly fact-dependent and downsides should be considered.
Thanks for this Bridges, and I’m sorry you had a negative experience with giving. It’s definitely a positive that EA has broader programming now and I agree that there is a real danger of alienating people who come from less affluent backgrounds. I’m really delighted that you’ve found a way back to EA now :-)
A couple of points: I’m not sure I agree that giving isn’t a team sport—Giving What We Can and One for the World both see a lot of engagement in our communities, from meet ups to webinars to socials.
I think our point is that it’s a shame to neglect giving entirely. As you say, it can often be part of the menu of EA without significant costs to other aspects; and while you were really inspired by longtermism and careers advice, thousands of people have presumably been inspired by Giving What We Can and One for the World when they’ve taken our pledges.
There seems to be good counter-evidence that talking to students about giving isn’t a good idea at all—it’s been done successfully in so many places for so long within EA and in so many other social movements. Tactics like future-dated donations, pledges that don’t start immediately or focussing on trivial amounts while you’re still studying can all help. But doing this sensitively is really important and that’s part of why we’re trying to offer training and resources!
Anyway, in summary, I’m really pleased you’re back in EA; and I hope we can mitigate these risks well going forward.