I wish I could even more strongly upvote this. I think the tension between EA and leftism is largely a product of mutual misunderstanding. In general, I think there is more overlap and room for cooperation than disagreement (particularly on things like open borders, decarceration, wealth redistribution/addressing inequality). I would encourage EAs to check out a Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) meeting in their hometown. Even if you strongly disagree with leftism/socialism, you’ll see a very different method of organizing people committed to helping others, which I have found an educational contrast with how we do things at EA NYC. DSA is great at involving lots of members in impactful local campaigns (supporting policies like universal rent control or medicare for all, organizing tenants, or supporting electoral candidates).
For the people who think that the left is disorganized and ineffective, I would encourage you to read more about the DSA’s electoral successes in the past few years (good overview of the DSA here: https://newrepublic.com/article/153768/inside-democratic-socialists-america-struggle-political-mainstream and a shorter piece by Nathan Robinson https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/05/why-i-love-the-d-s-a). Congresswomen AOC and Rashida Tlaib were DSA members and probably would not have won without the DSA’s grassroots support. Tiffany Caban is a DSA-backed public defender who has a real shot at becoming the next Queens District Attorney, an extraordinarily powerful position. Queens has over 2M people and the DA can unilaterally decide a lot of criminal justice policy in their jurisdiction. If Bernie wins the primary and general, DSA will have played a large role in turning out grassroots volunteers.
I’m not advocating that EA actively engage in political campaigns or radically change the way its local groups are structured. I just think that EAs who are interested in policy change go to some DSA events, because I think the DSA understands how political change happens far better than almost everyone I know in EA. Even if you think their priorities are dead wrong, they have been massively successful on an annual budget of less than $1m (https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/133109557).
I think the tension between EA and leftism is largely a product of mutual misunderstanding.
Yet persistent attempts to explain EA have accomplished, as far as I can tell, nothing in the way of improving leftist attitudes towards EA.
The reason there is tension is that the socialist movement gains status and notability when they condemn the things that are associated with capitalism in the public conscience. It’s really that simple. They are not dispassionate philosophers trying to understand things, they are a political movement that seeks attention and power. And they can gain much more attention and power if they position themselves as loud critics of EA than if they attempt a long quiet slog through the mud of rigorous cause prioritization. Of course EA seeks attention and power too, but with a very different set of constraints and incentives.
Eh, I’ve explained EA to a lot of lefties I meet and almost all of them have never heard of it, but are on board with the basics. However, my interpretation of and description of EA is pretty consistent with my lefty principles (both are extensions of radical egalitarian principles to me), and I’m sure lots of lefties would not like how market-friendly EA tends to be. I say some version of: EA is a social movement of people trying to do as much good as possible, using evidence to inform their perspective. This generally leads to people giving money to highly effective charities, giving up animal products, and prioritizing the long-term future.
Current Affairs overall is fairly amenable to EA and has a large platform within the left. I don’t think “they are a political movement that seeks attention and power” is a fair or complete characterization of the left. The people I know on the left genuinely believe that their preferred policies will improve people’s lives (e.g. single payer, increase minimum wage, more worker coops, etc.). You may disagree with their prescriptions, although based on the pro-market sources you tend to cite on these topics, you may not be interrogating your own biases enough. But if you believe what the typical DSA member does (that we know what the right policies are to address inequality and healthcare, and the only thing standing in the way of making them happen are entrenched wealthy interests), then their strategy of mobilizing large numbers of people to organize and canvass for these issues is a smart one. The EA approach to policy will only help affect things on the margin or in very technocratic roles, IMO. These things are important too, but EA has demonstrated no capability to mobilize popular support for its preferred policies.
Read the article. I can definitely see that happening and agree with the author’s ideas at the end. I’m based in NYC and the DSA here is quite big and very effective at electoral politics (e.g. AOC and hopefully Tiffany Caban). I don’t think that article proves any law of nature around lefty organizing. I do think that it illustrates a failure mode of left-wing communities (deference to identity concerns could be manipulated by bad actors). I don’t think it’s evidence that socialism is undesirable as a political project, any more so than EA’s tendency to avoid politics makes it undesirable as a social movement.
I’m sure lots of lefties would not like how market-friendly EA tends to be
It’s unclear to me how representative this is of either EA or leftists. Year over year, the EA survey has shown the vast majority of EA to be “left-of-centre”, which includes a significant portion of the community whose politics might very well be described as ‘far-left’. So while some leftists might be willing to surmise from one EA-aligned organization, or a subset of the community, being market-friendly as representative of how market-friendly all of EA is, that’s an unsound inference. Additionally, even for leftist movements in the U.S. to the left of the Democratic establishment, there is enough ideological diversity I would say many of them appreciate markets enough such that they’re not ‘unfriendly’ to them. Of course there are leftists who aren’t friendly to markets, but I’m aware of a phenomenon of some factions on the Left to claim to speak on behalf of the whole Left, when there is no reason in the vast majority of these cases to think it’s a sound conclusion to draw that the bulk of the Left is hostile to markets. So, while ‘a lot’ of leftists may be hostile to markets, and ‘a lot’ of EA may be market-friendly, without being substantiated with more empirical evidence and logical qualification, those claims don’t provide useful info we can meaningfully work with.
Current Affairs overall is fairly amenable to EA and has a large platform within the left. I don’t think “they are a political movement that seeks attention and power” is a fair or complete characterization of the left. The people I know on the left genuinely believe that their preferred policies will improve people’s lives (e.g. single payer, increase minimum wage, more worker coops, etc.).
I think you’re misinterpreting. I never said that was a complete characterization, and fairness has nothing to do with it. Leftist movements are political movements, and I would say they’re seeking attention and power like any and every other political movement. I’m on the Left as well, and that I and the people who are leftists genuinely believe our preferred policies will indeed improve people’s lives doesn’t change the fact the acquisition of political power to achieve those goals, and acquiring the requisite public attention to achieve that political power, is necessary to achieve those goals. To publicly acknowledge this can be fraught because such language can be easily, often through motivation, interpreted by leftists or their sympathizers as speaking of a political movement covetous of power for its own sake. If one is too sheepish to explain otherwise, and stand up for one’s convictions, it’s a problem. Yet it shouldn’t be a problem. I’ve read articles written by no less than Current Affairs’ editor-in-chief Nathan Robinson that to talk about power is something all leftists need to do more of.
It’s kind of funny to me that post on the DSA you’ve just linked is written by the same author of the Current Affairs article I linked on your post about socialism and EA the other day that you ripped apart.
Well I don’t play character assassination games, I’ve got no vendetta against the guy. Knowing about economics and observing the health of social movements are orthogonal. Would I trust Daron Acemoglu’s opinion of the internal workings of the DSA? Of course not.
I wish I could even more strongly upvote this. I think the tension between EA and leftism is largely a product of mutual misunderstanding. In general, I think there is more overlap and room for cooperation than disagreement (particularly on things like open borders, decarceration, wealth redistribution/addressing inequality). I would encourage EAs to check out a Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) meeting in their hometown. Even if you strongly disagree with leftism/socialism, you’ll see a very different method of organizing people committed to helping others, which I have found an educational contrast with how we do things at EA NYC. DSA is great at involving lots of members in impactful local campaigns (supporting policies like universal rent control or medicare for all, organizing tenants, or supporting electoral candidates).
For the people who think that the left is disorganized and ineffective, I would encourage you to read more about the DSA’s electoral successes in the past few years (good overview of the DSA here: https://newrepublic.com/article/153768/inside-democratic-socialists-america-struggle-political-mainstream and a shorter piece by Nathan Robinson https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/05/why-i-love-the-d-s-a). Congresswomen AOC and Rashida Tlaib were DSA members and probably would not have won without the DSA’s grassroots support. Tiffany Caban is a DSA-backed public defender who has a real shot at becoming the next Queens District Attorney, an extraordinarily powerful position. Queens has over 2M people and the DA can unilaterally decide a lot of criminal justice policy in their jurisdiction. If Bernie wins the primary and general, DSA will have played a large role in turning out grassroots volunteers.
I’m not advocating that EA actively engage in political campaigns or radically change the way its local groups are structured. I just think that EAs who are interested in policy change go to some DSA events, because I think the DSA understands how political change happens far better than almost everyone I know in EA. Even if you think their priorities are dead wrong, they have been massively successful on an annual budget of less than $1m (https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/133109557).
Yet persistent attempts to explain EA have accomplished, as far as I can tell, nothing in the way of improving leftist attitudes towards EA.
The reason there is tension is that the socialist movement gains status and notability when they condemn the things that are associated with capitalism in the public conscience. It’s really that simple. They are not dispassionate philosophers trying to understand things, they are a political movement that seeks attention and power. And they can gain much more attention and power if they position themselves as loud critics of EA than if they attempt a long quiet slog through the mud of rigorous cause prioritization. Of course EA seeks attention and power too, but with a very different set of constraints and incentives.
Re: the DSA. Have you seen this story?
Eh, I’ve explained EA to a lot of lefties I meet and almost all of them have never heard of it, but are on board with the basics. However, my interpretation of and description of EA is pretty consistent with my lefty principles (both are extensions of radical egalitarian principles to me), and I’m sure lots of lefties would not like how market-friendly EA tends to be. I say some version of: EA is a social movement of people trying to do as much good as possible, using evidence to inform their perspective. This generally leads to people giving money to highly effective charities, giving up animal products, and prioritizing the long-term future.
Current Affairs overall is fairly amenable to EA and has a large platform within the left. I don’t think “they are a political movement that seeks attention and power” is a fair or complete characterization of the left. The people I know on the left genuinely believe that their preferred policies will improve people’s lives (e.g. single payer, increase minimum wage, more worker coops, etc.). You may disagree with their prescriptions, although based on the pro-market sources you tend to cite on these topics, you may not be interrogating your own biases enough. But if you believe what the typical DSA member does (that we know what the right policies are to address inequality and healthcare, and the only thing standing in the way of making them happen are entrenched wealthy interests), then their strategy of mobilizing large numbers of people to organize and canvass for these issues is a smart one. The EA approach to policy will only help affect things on the margin or in very technocratic roles, IMO. These things are important too, but EA has demonstrated no capability to mobilize popular support for its preferred policies.
Read the article. I can definitely see that happening and agree with the author’s ideas at the end. I’m based in NYC and the DSA here is quite big and very effective at electoral politics (e.g. AOC and hopefully Tiffany Caban). I don’t think that article proves any law of nature around lefty organizing. I do think that it illustrates a failure mode of left-wing communities (deference to identity concerns could be manipulated by bad actors). I don’t think it’s evidence that socialism is undesirable as a political project, any more so than EA’s tendency to avoid politics makes it undesirable as a social movement.
It’s unclear to me how representative this is of either EA or leftists. Year over year, the EA survey has shown the vast majority of EA to be “left-of-centre”, which includes a significant portion of the community whose politics might very well be described as ‘far-left’. So while some leftists might be willing to surmise from one EA-aligned organization, or a subset of the community, being market-friendly as representative of how market-friendly all of EA is, that’s an unsound inference. Additionally, even for leftist movements in the U.S. to the left of the Democratic establishment, there is enough ideological diversity I would say many of them appreciate markets enough such that they’re not ‘unfriendly’ to them. Of course there are leftists who aren’t friendly to markets, but I’m aware of a phenomenon of some factions on the Left to claim to speak on behalf of the whole Left, when there is no reason in the vast majority of these cases to think it’s a sound conclusion to draw that the bulk of the Left is hostile to markets. So, while ‘a lot’ of leftists may be hostile to markets, and ‘a lot’ of EA may be market-friendly, without being substantiated with more empirical evidence and logical qualification, those claims don’t provide useful info we can meaningfully work with.
I think you’re misinterpreting. I never said that was a complete characterization, and fairness has nothing to do with it. Leftist movements are political movements, and I would say they’re seeking attention and power like any and every other political movement. I’m on the Left as well, and that I and the people who are leftists genuinely believe our preferred policies will indeed improve people’s lives doesn’t change the fact the acquisition of political power to achieve those goals, and acquiring the requisite public attention to achieve that political power, is necessary to achieve those goals. To publicly acknowledge this can be fraught because such language can be easily, often through motivation, interpreted by leftists or their sympathizers as speaking of a political movement covetous of power for its own sake. If one is too sheepish to explain otherwise, and stand up for one’s convictions, it’s a problem. Yet it shouldn’t be a problem. I’ve read articles written by no less than Current Affairs’ editor-in-chief Nathan Robinson that to talk about power is something all leftists need to do more of.
It’s kind of funny to me that post on the DSA you’ve just linked is written by the same author of the Current Affairs article I linked on your post about socialism and EA the other day that you ripped apart.
Well I don’t play character assassination games, I’ve got no vendetta against the guy. Knowing about economics and observing the health of social movements are orthogonal. Would I trust Daron Acemoglu’s opinion of the internal workings of the DSA? Of course not.
Yeah, I just meant it’s a funny coincidence. I don’t think there is any issue citing him here.
Yeah, I didn’t notice it, I was under the impression that 99% of Current Affairs was written by Nate.