While at CEA, I was asked to take the curriculum for the Intro Fellowship and turn it into the Handbook, and I made a variety of changes (though there have been other changes to the Fellowship and the Handbook since then, making it hard to track exactly what I changed). The Intro Fellowship curriculum and the Handbook were never identical.
I exchanged emails with Michael Plant and Sella Nevo, and reached out to several other people in the global development/animal welfare communities who didn’t reply. I also had my version reviewed by a dozen test readers (at least three readers for each section), who provided additional feedback on all of the material.
I incorporated many of the suggestions I received, though at this point I don’t remember which came from Michael, Sella, or other readers. I also made many changes on my own.
It’s reasonable to argue that I should have reached out to even more people, or incorporated more of the feedback I received. But I (and the other people who worked on this at CEA) were very aware of representativeness concerns. And I think the 3rd edition was a lot more balanced than the 2nd edition. I’d break down the sections as follows:
“The Effectiveness Mindset”, “Differences in Impact”, and “Expanding Our Compassion” are about EA philosophy with a near-term focus (most of the pieces use examples from near-term causes, and the “More to Explore” sections share a bunch of material specifically focused on anima welfare and global development).
“Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” are about longtermism and X-risk in general.
“Emerging Technologies” covers AI and biorisk specifically.
These topics get more specific detail than animal welfare and global development do if you look at the required reading alone. This is a real imbalance, but seems minor compared to the imbalance in the 2nd edition. For example, the 3rd edition doesn’t set aside a large chunk of the only global health + development essay for “why you might not want to work in this area”.
“What might we be missing?” covers a range of critical arguments, including many against longtermism!
Michael Plant seems not to have noticed the longtermism critiques in his comment, though they include “Pascal’s Mugging” in the “Essentials” section and a bunch of other relevant material in the “More to Explore” section.
“Putting it into practice” is focused on career choice and links mostly to 80K resources, which does give it a longtermist tilt. But it also links to a bunch of resources on finding careers in neartermist spaces, and if someone wanted to work on e.g. global health, I think they’d still find much to value among those links.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this section became much more balanced over time as more material becomes available from Probably Good (and other career orgs focused on specific areas).
In the end, you have three “neartermist” sections, four “longtermist” sections (if you count career choice), and one “neutral” section (critiques and counter-critiques that span the gamut of common focus areas).
Thanks for sharing this history and your perspective Aaron.
I agree that 1) the problems with the 3rd edition were less severe than those with the 2nd edition (though I’d say that’s a very low bar to clear) and 2) the 3rd edition looks more representative if you weigh the “more to explore” sections equally with “the essentials” (though IMO it’s pretty clear that the curriculum places way more weight on the content it frames as “essential” than a content linked to at the bottom of the “further reading” section.)
I disagree with your characterization of “The Effectiveness Mindset”, “Differences in Impact”, and “Expanding Our Compassion” as neartermist content in a way that’s comparable to how subsequent sections are longtermist content. The early sections include some content that is clearly neartermist (e.g. “The case against speciesism”, and “The moral imperative toward cost-effectiveness in global health”). But much, maybe most, of the “essential” reading in the first three sections isn’t really about neartermist (or longtermist) causes. For instance, “We are in triage every second of every day” is about… triage. I’d also put “On Fringe Ideas”, “Moral Progress and Cause X”, “Can one person make a difference?”, “Radical Empathy”, and “Prospecting for Gold” in this bucket.
By contrast, the essential reading in the “Longtermism”, “Existential Risk”, and “Emerging technologies” section is all highly focused on longtermist causes/worldview; it’s all stuff like “Reducing global catastrophic biological risks”, “The case for reducing existential risk”, and “The case for strong longtermism”.
I also disagree that the “What we may be missing?” section places much emphasis on longtermist critiques (outside of the “more to explore” section, which I don’t think carries much weight as mentioned earlier). “Pascal’s mugging” is relevant to, but not specific to, longtermism, and “The case of the missing cause prioritization research” doesn’t criticize longtermist ideas per se, it more argues that the shift toward prioritizing longtermism hasn’t been informed by significant amounts of relevant research. I find it telling that “Objections to EA” (framed as a bit of a laundry list) doesn’t include anything about longtermism and that as far as I can tell no content in this whole section addresses the most frequent and intuitive criticism of longtermism I’ve heard (that it’s really really hard to influence the far future so we should be skeptical of our ability to do so).
Process-wise, I don’t think the use of test readers was an effective way of making sure the handbook was representative. Each test reader only saw a fraction of the content, so they’d be in no position to comment on the handbook as a whole. While I’m glad you approached members of the animal and global development communities for feedback, I think the fact that they didn’t respond is itself a form of (negative) feedback (which I would guess reflects the skepticism Michael expressed that his feedback would be incorporated). I’d feel better about the process if, for example, you’d posted in poverty and animal focused Facebook groups and offered to pay people (like the test readers were paid) to weigh in on whether the handbook represented their cause appropriately.
I’ll read any reply to this and make sure CEA sees it, but I don’t plan to respond further myself, as I’m no longer working on this project.
Thanks for the response. I agree with some of your points and disagree with others.
To preface this, I wouldn’t make a claim like “the 3rd edition was representative for X definition of the word” or “I was satisfied with the Handbook when we published it” (I left CEA with 19 pages of notes on changes I was considering). There’s plenty of good criticism that one could make of it, from almost any perspective.
It’s pretty clear that the curriculum places way more weight on the content it frames as “essential” than a content linked to at the bottom of the “further reading” section.
I agree.
But much, maybe most, of the “essential” reading in the first three sections isn’t really about neartermist (or longtermist) causes. For instance, “We are in triage every second of every day” is about… triage. I’d also put “On Fringe Ideas”, “Moral Progress and Cause X”, “Can one person make a difference?”, “Radical Empathy”, and “Prospecting for Gold” in this bucket.
Many of these have ideas that can be applied to either perspective. But the actual things they discuss are mostly near-term causes.
“On Fringe Ideas” focuses on wild animal welfare.
“We are in triage” ends with a discussion of global development (an area where the triage metaphor makes far more intuitive sense than it does for longtermist areas).
“Radical Empathy” is almost entirely focused on specific neartermist causes.
“Can one person make a difference” features three people who made a big difference — two doctors and Petrov. Long-term impact gets a brief shout-out at the end, but the impact of each person is measured by how many lives they saved in their own time (or through to the present day).
This is different from e.g. detailed pieces describing causes like malaria prevention or vitamin supplementation. I think that’s a real gap in the Handbook, and worth addressing.
But it seems to me like anyone who starts the Handbook will get a very strong impression in those first three sections that EA cares a lot about near-term causes, helping people today, helping animals, and tackling measurable problems. That impression matters more to me than cause-specific knowledge (though again, some of that would still be nice!).
However, I may be biased here by my teaching experience. In the two introductory fellowships I’ve facilitated, participants who read these essays spent their first three weeks discussing almost exclusively near-term causes and examples.
By contrast, the essential reading in the “Longtermism”, “Existential Risk”, and “Emerging technologies” section is all highly focused on longtermist causes/worldview; it’s all stuff like “Reducing global catastrophic biological risks”, “The case for reducing existential risk”, and “The case for strong longtermism”.
I agree that the reading in these sections is more focused. Nonetheless, I still feel like there’s a decent balance, for reasons that aren’t obvious from the content alone:
Most people have a better intuitive sense for neartermist causes and ideas. I found that longtermism (and AI specifically) required more explanation and discussion before people understood them, relative to the causes and ideas mentioned in the first three weeks. Population ethics alone took up most of a week.
“Longtermist” causes sometimes aren’t. I still don’t quite understand how we decided to add pandemic prevention to the “longtermist” bucket. When that issue came up, people were intensely interested and found the subject relative to their own lives/the lives of people they knew.
I wouldn’t be surprised if many people in EA (including people in my intro fellowships) saw many of Toby Ord’s “policy and research ideas” as competitive with AMF just for saving people alive today.
I assume there are also people who would see AMF as competitive with many longtermist orgs in terms of improving the future, but I’d guess they aren’t nearly as common.
“Pascal’s mugging” is relevant to, but not specific to, longtermism
I don’t think I’ve seen Pascal’s Mugging discussed in any non-longtermist context, unless you count actual religion. Do you have an example on hand for where people have applied the idea to a neartermist cause?
“The case of the missing cause prioritization research” doesn’t criticize longtermist ideas per se, it more argues that the shift toward prioritizing longtermism hasn’t been informed by significant amounts of relevant research.
I agree. I wouldn’t think of that piece as critical of longtermism.
As far as I can tell, no content in this whole section addresses the most frequent and intuitive criticism of longtermism I’ve heard (that it’s really really hard to influence the far future so we should be skeptical of our ability to do so).
I haven’t gone back to check all the material, but I assume you’re correct. I think it would be useful to add more content on this point.
This is another case where my experience as a facilitator warps my perspective; I think both of my groups discussed this, so it didn’t occur to me that it wasn’t an “official” topic.
Process-wise, I don’t think the use of test readers was an effective way of making sure the handbook was representative. Each test reader only saw a fraction of the content, so they’d be in no position to comment on the handbook as a whole.
I agree. That wasn’t the purpose of selecting test readers; I mentioned them only because some of them happened to make useful suggestions on this front.
While I’m glad you approached members of the animal and global development communities for feedback, I think the fact that they didn’t respond is itself a form of (negative) feedback (which I would guess reflects the skepticism Michael expressed that his feedback would be incorporated).
I wrote to four people, two of whom (including Michael) sent useful feedback . The other two also responded; one said they were busy, the other seemed excited/interested but never wound up sending anything.
A 50% useful-response rate isn’t bad, and makes me wish I’d sent more of those emails. My excuse is the dumb-but-true “I was busy, and this was one project among many”.
(As an aside, if someone wanted to draft a near-term-focused version of the Handbook, I think they’d have a very good shot at getting a grant.)
I’d feel better about the process if, for example, you’d posted in poverty and animal focused Facebook groups and offered to pay people (like the test readers were paid) to weigh in on whether the handbook represented their cause appropriately.
I’d probably have asked “what else should we include?” rather than “is this current stuff good?”, but I agree with this in spirit.
(As another aside, if you specifically have ideas for material you’d like to see included, I’d be happy to pass them along to CEA — or you could contact someone like Max or Lizka.)
But it seems to me like anyone who starts the Handbook will get a very strong impression in those first three sections that EA cares a lot about near-term causes, helping people today, helping animals, and tackling measurable problems. That impression matters more to me than cause-specific knowledge (though again, some of that would still be nice!).
However, I may be biased here by my teaching experience. In the two introductory fellowships I’ve facilitated, participants who read these essays spent their first three weeks discussing almost exclusively near-term causes and examples.
That’s helpful anecdata about your teaching experience. I’d love to see a more rigorous and thorough study of how participants respond to the fellowships to see how representative your experience is.
I don’t think I’ve seen Pascal’s Mugging discussed in any non-longtermist context, unless you count actual religion. Do you have an example on hand for where people have applied the idea to a neartermist cause?
I’m pretty sure I’ve heard it used in the context of a scenario questioning whether torture is justified to stop the threat dirty bomb that’s about to go off in a city.
I wrote to four people, two of whom (including Michael) sent useful feedback . The other two also responded; one said they were busy, the other seemed excited/interested but never wound up sending anything.
A 50% useful-response rate isn’t bad, and makes me wish I’d sent more of those emails. My excuse is the dumb-but-true “I was busy, and this was one project among many”.
That’s a good excuse :) I misinterpreted Michael’s previous comment as saying his feedback didn’t get incorporated at all. This process seems better than I’d realized (though still short of what I’d have liked to see after the negative reaction to the 2nd edition).
if you specifically have ideas for material you’d like to see included, I’d be happy to pass them along to CEA — or you could contact someone like Max or Lizka.
GiveWell’s Giving 101 would be a great fit for global poverty. For animal welfare content, I’d suggest making the first chapter of Animal Liberation part of the essential content (or at least further reading), rather than part of the “more to explore” content. But my meta-suggestion would be to ask people who specialize in doing poverty/animal outreach for suggestions.
While at CEA, I was asked to take the curriculum for the Intro Fellowship and turn it into the Handbook, and I made a variety of changes (though there have been other changes to the Fellowship and the Handbook since then, making it hard to track exactly what I changed). The Intro Fellowship curriculum and the Handbook were never identical.
I exchanged emails with Michael Plant and Sella Nevo, and reached out to several other people in the global development/animal welfare communities who didn’t reply. I also had my version reviewed by a dozen test readers (at least three readers for each section), who provided additional feedback on all of the material.
I incorporated many of the suggestions I received, though at this point I don’t remember which came from Michael, Sella, or other readers. I also made many changes on my own.
It’s reasonable to argue that I should have reached out to even more people, or incorporated more of the feedback I received. But I (and the other people who worked on this at CEA) were very aware of representativeness concerns. And I think the 3rd edition was a lot more balanced than the 2nd edition. I’d break down the sections as follows:
“The Effectiveness Mindset”, “Differences in Impact”, and “Expanding Our Compassion” are about EA philosophy with a near-term focus (most of the pieces use examples from near-term causes, and the “More to Explore” sections share a bunch of material specifically focused on anima welfare and global development).
“Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” are about longtermism and X-risk in general.
“Emerging Technologies” covers AI and biorisk specifically.
These topics get more specific detail than animal welfare and global development do if you look at the required reading alone. This is a real imbalance, but seems minor compared to the imbalance in the 2nd edition. For example, the 3rd edition doesn’t set aside a large chunk of the only global health + development essay for “why you might not want to work in this area”.
“What might we be missing?” covers a range of critical arguments, including many against longtermism!
Michael Plant seems not to have noticed the longtermism critiques in his comment, though they include “Pascal’s Mugging” in the “Essentials” section and a bunch of other relevant material in the “More to Explore” section.
“Putting it into practice” is focused on career choice and links mostly to 80K resources, which does give it a longtermist tilt. But it also links to a bunch of resources on finding careers in neartermist spaces, and if someone wanted to work on e.g. global health, I think they’d still find much to value among those links.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this section became much more balanced over time as more material becomes available from Probably Good (and other career orgs focused on specific areas).
In the end, you have three “neartermist” sections, four “longtermist” sections (if you count career choice), and one “neutral” section (critiques and counter-critiques that span the gamut of common focus areas).
Thanks for sharing this history and your perspective Aaron.
I agree that 1) the problems with the 3rd edition were less severe than those with the 2nd edition (though I’d say that’s a very low bar to clear) and 2) the 3rd edition looks more representative if you weigh the “more to explore” sections equally with “the essentials” (though IMO it’s pretty clear that the curriculum places way more weight on the content it frames as “essential” than a content linked to at the bottom of the “further reading” section.)
I disagree with your characterization of “The Effectiveness Mindset”, “Differences in Impact”, and “Expanding Our Compassion” as neartermist content in a way that’s comparable to how subsequent sections are longtermist content. The early sections include some content that is clearly neartermist (e.g. “The case against speciesism”, and “The moral imperative toward cost-effectiveness in global health”). But much, maybe most, of the
“essential” reading in the first three sections isn’t really about neartermist (or longtermist) causes. For instance, “We are in triage every second of every day” is about… triage. I’d also put “On Fringe Ideas”, “Moral Progress and Cause X”, “Can one person make a difference?”, “Radical Empathy”, and “Prospecting for Gold” in this bucket.
By contrast, the essential reading in the “Longtermism”, “Existential Risk”, and “Emerging technologies” section is all highly focused on longtermist causes/worldview; it’s all stuff like “Reducing global catastrophic biological risks”, “The case for reducing existential risk”, and “The case for strong longtermism”.
I also disagree that the “What we may be missing?” section places much emphasis on longtermist critiques (outside of the “more to explore” section, which I don’t think carries much weight as mentioned earlier). “Pascal’s mugging” is relevant to, but not specific to, longtermism, and “The case of the missing cause prioritization research” doesn’t criticize longtermist ideas per se, it more argues that the shift toward prioritizing longtermism hasn’t been informed by significant amounts of relevant research. I find it telling that “Objections to EA” (framed as a bit of a laundry list) doesn’t include anything about longtermism and that as far as I can tell no content in this whole section addresses the most frequent and intuitive criticism of longtermism I’ve heard (that it’s really really hard to influence the far future so we should be skeptical of our ability to do so).
Process-wise, I don’t think the use of test readers was an effective way of making sure the handbook was representative. Each test reader only saw a fraction of the content, so they’d be in no position to comment on the handbook as a whole. While I’m glad you approached members of the animal and global development communities for feedback, I think the fact that they didn’t respond is itself a form of (negative) feedback (which I would guess reflects the skepticism Michael expressed that his feedback would be incorporated). I’d feel better about the process if, for example, you’d posted in poverty and animal focused Facebook groups and offered to pay people (like the test readers were paid) to weigh in on whether the handbook represented their cause appropriately.
I’ll read any reply to this and make sure CEA sees it, but I don’t plan to respond further myself, as I’m no longer working on this project.
Thanks for the response. I agree with some of your points and disagree with others.
To preface this, I wouldn’t make a claim like “the 3rd edition was representative for X definition of the word” or “I was satisfied with the Handbook when we published it” (I left CEA with 19 pages of notes on changes I was considering). There’s plenty of good criticism that one could make of it, from almost any perspective.
I agree.
Many of these have ideas that can be applied to either perspective. But the actual things they discuss are mostly near-term causes.
“On Fringe Ideas” focuses on wild animal welfare.
“We are in triage” ends with a discussion of global development (an area where the triage metaphor makes far more intuitive sense than it does for longtermist areas).
“Radical Empathy” is almost entirely focused on specific neartermist causes.
“Can one person make a difference” features three people who made a big difference — two doctors and Petrov. Long-term impact gets a brief shout-out at the end, but the impact of each person is measured by how many lives they saved in their own time (or through to the present day).
This is different from e.g. detailed pieces describing causes like malaria prevention or vitamin supplementation. I think that’s a real gap in the Handbook, and worth addressing.
But it seems to me like anyone who starts the Handbook will get a very strong impression in those first three sections that EA cares a lot about near-term causes, helping people today, helping animals, and tackling measurable problems. That impression matters more to me than cause-specific knowledge (though again, some of that would still be nice!).
However, I may be biased here by my teaching experience. In the two introductory fellowships I’ve facilitated, participants who read these essays spent their first three weeks discussing almost exclusively near-term causes and examples.
I agree that the reading in these sections is more focused. Nonetheless, I still feel like there’s a decent balance, for reasons that aren’t obvious from the content alone:
Most people have a better intuitive sense for neartermist causes and ideas. I found that longtermism (and AI specifically) required more explanation and discussion before people understood them, relative to the causes and ideas mentioned in the first three weeks. Population ethics alone took up most of a week.
“Longtermist” causes sometimes aren’t. I still don’t quite understand how we decided to add pandemic prevention to the “longtermist” bucket. When that issue came up, people were intensely interested and found the subject relative to their own lives/the lives of people they knew.
I wouldn’t be surprised if many people in EA (including people in my intro fellowships) saw many of Toby Ord’s “policy and research ideas” as competitive with AMF just for saving people alive today.
I assume there are also people who would see AMF as competitive with many longtermist orgs in terms of improving the future, but I’d guess they aren’t nearly as common.
I don’t think I’ve seen Pascal’s Mugging discussed in any non-longtermist context, unless you count actual religion. Do you have an example on hand for where people have applied the idea to a neartermist cause?
I agree. I wouldn’t think of that piece as critical of longtermism.
I haven’t gone back to check all the material, but I assume you’re correct. I think it would be useful to add more content on this point.
This is another case where my experience as a facilitator warps my perspective; I think both of my groups discussed this, so it didn’t occur to me that it wasn’t an “official” topic.
I agree. That wasn’t the purpose of selecting test readers; I mentioned them only because some of them happened to make useful suggestions on this front.
I wrote to four people, two of whom (including Michael) sent useful feedback . The other two also responded; one said they were busy, the other seemed excited/interested but never wound up sending anything.
A 50% useful-response rate isn’t bad, and makes me wish I’d sent more of those emails. My excuse is the dumb-but-true “I was busy, and this was one project among many”.
(As an aside, if someone wanted to draft a near-term-focused version of the Handbook, I think they’d have a very good shot at getting a grant.)
I’d probably have asked “what else should we include?” rather than “is this current stuff good?”, but I agree with this in spirit.
(As another aside, if you specifically have ideas for material you’d like to see included, I’d be happy to pass them along to CEA — or you could contact someone like Max or Lizka.)
That’s helpful anecdata about your teaching experience. I’d love to see a more rigorous and thorough study of how participants respond to the fellowships to see how representative your experience is.
I’m pretty sure I’ve heard it used in the context of a scenario questioning whether torture is justified to stop the threat dirty bomb that’s about to go off in a city.
That’s a good excuse :) I misinterpreted Michael’s previous comment as saying his feedback didn’t get incorporated at all. This process seems better than I’d realized (though still short of what I’d have liked to see after the negative reaction to the 2nd edition).
GiveWell’s Giving 101 would be a great fit for global poverty. For animal welfare content, I’d suggest making the first chapter of Animal Liberation part of the essential content (or at least further reading), rather than part of the “more to explore” content. But my meta-suggestion would be to ask people who specialize in doing poverty/animal outreach for suggestions.