Can you clarify why you think your three criteria are enough to ascribe benign intentions the majority of the time? The point I was trying to get at was that there’s no relation to thinking a lot about how to make the world a better place and making sacrifices to achieve that AND also having benign intentions towards other groups. People can just more narrowly define the world that they are serving.
A concrete example of how believing women have less worth than men could be harmful in evaluating charities; one charity helps women by X utils, one charity helps men by X utils. (Perhaps charity #1 decreases the amount of work women need to do by having a well for water; etc.). Believing women have less worth than men would lead to charity #2 strictly dominating charity #1 when they should AC tually be equally recommended.
In terms of people having the ‘right’ philosophy — what I’m saying is that there’s nothing inherent to EA that prevents it from coexisting with misogyny. It’s not a core EA belief that women are equal to men. So we shouldn’t be surprised that EA’s may act as misogynists.
In any case, you admit that your criteria aren’t sufficient to screen out all negative intentions. When you say we give the benefit of the doubt for the sake of the EA project, what you’re saying is that demographic minorities need to accept some level of malevolence in their communities in exchange for the privilege of contributing to the EA cause. Why should the burden be on them? Why not place the burden (if you can even call it that) on individuals who don’t have to worry about this systematic malevolence — which is what this document suggests we do — to think about what they say before they say it.
(I’m not going to address each of your rebuttals individually because the main points I want to defend are the two I’ve tried to clarify above.)
Can you clarify why you think your three criteria are enough to ascribe benign intentions the majority of the time?
It seems right based on all my experience talking to people, seeing what they say, considering their beliefs, and observing their behavior.
The point I was trying to get at was that there’s no relation to thinking a lot about how to make the world a better place and making sacrifices to achieve that AND also having benign intentions towards other groups. People can just more narrowly define the world that they are serving.
Well in EA we don’t “just more narrowly define the world that we are serving”. We have philosophical rigor.
A concrete example of how believing women have less worth than men could be harmful in evaluating charities; one charity helps women by X utils, one charity helps men by X utils. (Perhaps charity #1 decreases the amount of work women need to do by having a well for water; etc.). Believing women have less worth than men would lead to charity #2 strictly dominating charity #1 when they should AC tually be equally recommended.
There are people in EA who believe that animals have a lot of value, so they don’t give money to charities that help women (or men). Are they harming women? What should we do about them?
It’s not a core EA belief that women are equal to men.
What do you mean by equal? It’s a core EA belief that the interests of women are equally valuable to the interests of men.
Also, your claim is that we should hide facts from people in order to prevent them from achieving their goals. This is only truly justified if people are actively trying to make life worse for women, which is obviously antithetical to EA. The mere fact that someone thinks women should be treated or prioritized a little differently doesn’t necessarily mean that giving them facts will make their behavior worse under your view.
When you say we give the benefit of the doubt for the sake of the EA project, what you’re saying is that demographic minorities need to accept some level of malevolence
EA is not for malevolent people, EA for people who are trying to make the world better.
If you are worried about people lying to infiltrate EA, that’s not going to change no matter what we do—people could lie to infiltrate any group with any rules.
in exchange for the privilege of contributing to the EA cause
The EA cause is not a privilege. It’s a duty.
Why should the burden be on them? Why not place the burden (if you can even call it that) on individuals who don’t have to worry about this systematic malevolence — which is what this document suggests we do — to think about what they say before they say it
In my original comment, I explicitly said that it’s a two-way street.
The reason that it’s a two-way street is that when these kinds of issues are only resolved by making demands on the offending party, the conflict never ends—there is a continued spiral of new issues and infighting.
Can you clarify why you think your three criteria are enough to ascribe benign intentions the majority of the time? The point I was trying to get at was that there’s no relation to thinking a lot about how to make the world a better place and making sacrifices to achieve that AND also having benign intentions towards other groups. People can just more narrowly define the world that they are serving.
A concrete example of how believing women have less worth than men could be harmful in evaluating charities; one charity helps women by X utils, one charity helps men by X utils. (Perhaps charity #1 decreases the amount of work women need to do by having a well for water; etc.). Believing women have less worth than men would lead to charity #2 strictly dominating charity #1 when they should AC tually be equally recommended.
In terms of people having the ‘right’ philosophy — what I’m saying is that there’s nothing inherent to EA that prevents it from coexisting with misogyny. It’s not a core EA belief that women are equal to men. So we shouldn’t be surprised that EA’s may act as misogynists.
In any case, you admit that your criteria aren’t sufficient to screen out all negative intentions. When you say we give the benefit of the doubt for the sake of the EA project, what you’re saying is that demographic minorities need to accept some level of malevolence in their communities in exchange for the privilege of contributing to the EA cause. Why should the burden be on them? Why not place the burden (if you can even call it that) on individuals who don’t have to worry about this systematic malevolence — which is what this document suggests we do — to think about what they say before they say it.
(I’m not going to address each of your rebuttals individually because the main points I want to defend are the two I’ve tried to clarify above.)
It seems right based on all my experience talking to people, seeing what they say, considering their beliefs, and observing their behavior.
Well in EA we don’t “just more narrowly define the world that we are serving”. We have philosophical rigor.
There are people in EA who believe that animals have a lot of value, so they don’t give money to charities that help women (or men). Are they harming women? What should we do about them?
What do you mean by equal? It’s a core EA belief that the interests of women are equally valuable to the interests of men.
Also, your claim is that we should hide facts from people in order to prevent them from achieving their goals. This is only truly justified if people are actively trying to make life worse for women, which is obviously antithetical to EA. The mere fact that someone thinks women should be treated or prioritized a little differently doesn’t necessarily mean that giving them facts will make their behavior worse under your view.
EA is not for malevolent people, EA for people who are trying to make the world better.
If you are worried about people lying to infiltrate EA, that’s not going to change no matter what we do—people could lie to infiltrate any group with any rules.
The EA cause is not a privilege. It’s a duty.
In my original comment, I explicitly said that it’s a two-way street.
The reason that it’s a two-way street is that when these kinds of issues are only resolved by making demands on the offending party, the conflict never ends—there is a continued spiral of new issues and infighting.