I totally understand your concern that the EA movement is misrepresenting itself by not promoting issues proportional to their representation among people in the group. However, I think that the primary consideration in promoting EA should be what will hook people. Very few people in the world care about AI as a social issue, but extreme poverty and injustice are very popular causes that can attract people. I don’t actually think it should matter for outreach what the most popular causes are among community members. Outreach should be based on what is likely to attract the masses to practice EA (without watering it down by promoting low impact causes, of course). Also, I believe it’s possible to be too inclusive of moral theories. Dangerous theories that incite terrorism like Islamic or negative utilitarian extremism should be condemned.
Also, I’m not sure to what extent people in the community even represent people who practice EA. Those are two very different things. You can practice EA, for example by donating a chunk of your income to Oxfam every year, but not have anything to do with others who identify with EA, and you can be a regular at EA meetups and discussing related topics often (ie. a member of the EA community) without donating or doing anything high impact. Perhaps the most popular issues acted on by those who practice EA are different from those discussed by those who like to talk about EA. Being part of the EA community doesn’t give one any moral authority in itself.
It’s exactly this line of thinking I expect to blow up in our faces and do less good over the long run. How would you feel if you thought I considered you one of the stupid “masses” (your word) and I was trying to manipulate you to do something I didn’t personally believe?
You’d dislike me, distrust me, not want to do what I told you and probably tell other people EA was full of suspicious people. No one wants to be taken for an idiot.
Certainly, no one should be expected to promote things they don’t believe. Which is why if you’re like many in the community, using EA to promote your pre-existing atheist agenda, you should not do outreach, nor call your meetup an “effective altruism” group.
It is your EA community that considers the public stupid, Michael. I completely disagree! Perhaps if your group respected the public more, they might listen to you.
My second point was that the public, being smart, recognizes that the EA community has no moral authority and therefore doesn’t care what their favourite causes are. EAs should thus use logic, not authority, to influence, the public.
I didn’t follow your point about atheism. I don’t think EA is for or against religion in any way.
I didn’t follow your second point either. I’m suggesting the EA outreach organisations should not treat the public as marks and that we should respect the public. You were the one who suggested “Outreach should be based on what is likely to attract the masses to practice EA”
Perhaps I got it wrong, but I thought that the premise of your position that EA outreach should proportionally represent what people who identify as EAs consider their favourite cause is that EAs (however “effective altruist” is defined) are morally and intellectually superior to the public. I know for a fact that this is the prevailing attitude EAs have. I would really like to know why it is not enough to educate the public on EA-related issues. Why should the public care what is the favourite cause of an upper class 25 year old who donates $500 a year to the same charity since before he learned about effective altruism, discusses computer science concepts with his friends, and denies the reality that people in poor countries are themselves best positioned to solve their problems? How is that person special?
It’s hard for me to imagine a more prejudiced group of people than EAs. You literally hate everyone different from you, ie. people who love God or have a different background or social class. Above all, EAs are extremely racist, denying that people in low income countries themselves have the power to solve their problems and perpetuating the colonial myth that improving the world is the sole realm of privileged white people. Most people in the movement have little empathy for others and are just using it to validate their feelings of superiority and further the dominance of their social class/race. (I am referring to EAs’ attitudes. I don’t mean to suggest that helping others is itself condescending/bad in any way.)
It is the public that should be teaching morals to “EAs”, not the other way around. God bless.
I totally understand your concern that the EA movement is misrepresenting itself by not promoting issues proportional to their representation among people in the group. However, I think that the primary consideration in promoting EA should be what will hook people. Very few people in the world care about AI as a social issue, but extreme poverty and injustice are very popular causes that can attract people. I don’t actually think it should matter for outreach what the most popular causes are among community members. Outreach should be based on what is likely to attract the masses to practice EA (without watering it down by promoting low impact causes, of course). Also, I believe it’s possible to be too inclusive of moral theories. Dangerous theories that incite terrorism like Islamic or negative utilitarian extremism should be condemned.
Also, I’m not sure to what extent people in the community even represent people who practice EA. Those are two very different things. You can practice EA, for example by donating a chunk of your income to Oxfam every year, but not have anything to do with others who identify with EA, and you can be a regular at EA meetups and discussing related topics often (ie. a member of the EA community) without donating or doing anything high impact. Perhaps the most popular issues acted on by those who practice EA are different from those discussed by those who like to talk about EA. Being part of the EA community doesn’t give one any moral authority in itself.
It’s exactly this line of thinking I expect to blow up in our faces and do less good over the long run. How would you feel if you thought I considered you one of the stupid “masses” (your word) and I was trying to manipulate you to do something I didn’t personally believe?
You’d dislike me, distrust me, not want to do what I told you and probably tell other people EA was full of suspicious people. No one wants to be taken for an idiot.
I didn’t follow your 2nd point I’m afraid.
Certainly, no one should be expected to promote things they don’t believe. Which is why if you’re like many in the community, using EA to promote your pre-existing atheist agenda, you should not do outreach, nor call your meetup an “effective altruism” group.
It is your EA community that considers the public stupid, Michael. I completely disagree! Perhaps if your group respected the public more, they might listen to you.
My second point was that the public, being smart, recognizes that the EA community has no moral authority and therefore doesn’t care what their favourite causes are. EAs should thus use logic, not authority, to influence, the public.
I didn’t follow your point about atheism. I don’t think EA is for or against religion in any way.
I didn’t follow your second point either. I’m suggesting the EA outreach organisations should not treat the public as marks and that we should respect the public. You were the one who suggested “Outreach should be based on what is likely to attract the masses to practice EA”
Perhaps I got it wrong, but I thought that the premise of your position that EA outreach should proportionally represent what people who identify as EAs consider their favourite cause is that EAs (however “effective altruist” is defined) are morally and intellectually superior to the public. I know for a fact that this is the prevailing attitude EAs have. I would really like to know why it is not enough to educate the public on EA-related issues. Why should the public care what is the favourite cause of an upper class 25 year old who donates $500 a year to the same charity since before he learned about effective altruism, discusses computer science concepts with his friends, and denies the reality that people in poor countries are themselves best positioned to solve their problems? How is that person special?
It’s hard for me to imagine a more prejudiced group of people than EAs. You literally hate everyone different from you, ie. people who love God or have a different background or social class. Above all, EAs are extremely racist, denying that people in low income countries themselves have the power to solve their problems and perpetuating the colonial myth that improving the world is the sole realm of privileged white people. Most people in the movement have little empathy for others and are just using it to validate their feelings of superiority and further the dominance of their social class/race. (I am referring to EAs’ attitudes. I don’t mean to suggest that helping others is itself condescending/bad in any way.)
It is the public that should be teaching morals to “EAs”, not the other way around. God bless.