I want to open by saying that there are many things about this post I appreciate, and accordingly I upvoted it despite disagreeing with many particulars. Things I appreciate include, but are not limited to:
-The detailed block-by-block approach to making the case for both cancel culture’s prevalence and its potential harm to the movement.
-An attempt to offer a concrete alternative pathway to CEA and local groups that face similar decisions in future.
-Many attempts throughout the post to imagine the viewpoint of someone who might disagree, and preempt the most obvious responses.
But there’s still a piece I think is missing. I don’t fault Larks for this directly, since the post is already very long and covers a lot of ground, but it’s the area that I always find myself wanting to hear more about in these discussions, and so would like to hear more about from either Larks or others in reply to this comment. It relates to both of these quotes.
Of course, being a prolific producer of premium prioritisation posts doesn’t mean we should give someone a free pass for behaving immorally. For all that EAs are consequentialists, I don’t think we should ignore wrongdoing ‘for the greater good’. We can, I hope, defend the good without giving carte blanche to the bad, even when both exist within the same person.
Rules and standards are very important for organising any sort of society. However, when applied inconsistently they can be used as a weapon to attack unpopular people while letting popular people off the hook.
Given that this post is titled ‘advice for CEA and local groups’, reading this made me hope that this post would end with some suggested ‘rules and standards’ for who we do and do not invite to speak at local events/EAG/etc. Where do we draw the line on ‘behaving immorally’? I strongly agree that whatever rules are being applied should be applied consistently, and think this is most likely to happen when discussed and laid down in a transparent and pre-agreed fashion.
While I have personal views on the Munich case which I have laid out elsewhere, I agree with Khorton below that little is being served by an ongoing prosecution-and-defence of Robin’s character or work. Moreover, my commitment to consistency and transparency is far stronger than my preference for any one set of rules over others. I also expect clear rules about what we will and won’t allow at various levels to naturally insulate against cancel culture. To the extent I agree that cancel culture is an increasing problem, the priority on getting this clear and relying less on ad hoc judgements of individuals has therefore risen, and will likely continue to rise.
So, what rules should we have? What are valid reasons to choose not to invite a speaker?
It’s a good question. I’ve thought about this a bit in the past.
One surprising rule is that overall I think people with a criminal record should still be welcome to contribute in many ways. If you’re in prison, I think you should generally be allowed to e.g. submit papers to physics journals, you shouldn’t be precluded from contributing to humanity and science. Similarly, I think giving remote talks and publishing on the EA Forum should not be totally shut off (though likely hampered in some ways) for people who have behaved badly and broken laws. (Obviously different rules apply for hiring them and inviting them to in-person events, where you need to look at the kind of criminal behavior and see if it’s relevant.)
I feel fairly differently to people who have done damage in and to members of the EA community. Someone like Gleb Tsipursky hasn’t even broken any laws and should still be kicked out and not welcomed back for something like 10 years, and even then he probably won’t have changed enough (most people don’t).
In general EA is outcome-oriented, it’s not a hobby community, there’s sh*t that needs to be done because civilization is inadequate and literally everything is still at stake at this point in history. We want the best contributions and care about that to the exemption of people being fun or something. You hire the best person for the job.
There’s some tension there, and I think overall I am personally willing to put in a lot of resources in my outcome-oriented communities to make sure that people who contribute to the mission are given the spaces and help they need to positively contribute.
I can’t think of a good example that isn’t either of a literal person or too abstract… like, suppose Einstein has terrible allergies to most foods, just can’t be in the space as them. Can we have him at EAG? How much work am I willing to put in for him to have a good EAG? Do I have to figure out a way to feed everyone a very exclusive yet wholesome diet that means he can join? Perhaps.
Similarly, if I’m running a physics conference and Einstein is in prison for murder, will I have him in? Again, I’m pretty open to video calls, I’m pretty willing to put in the time to make sure everyone knows what sort of risks he is, and make sure he isn’t allowed to end up in a vulnerable situation with someone, because it’s worth it for our mission to have him contribute.
You get the picture. Y’know, tradeoffs, where you actually value something and are willing to put in extraordinary effort to make it work.
As I said in an earlier comment, I think we need to evaluate this on a case-by-case basis and ultimately make decisions based on a (rough) calculation of expected benefit vs expected harm of letting someone speak. So for me there isn’t really a standard “line on behaving immorally”. For example, if someone has bad character but it is genuinely plausible they might come up cause X, then I reckon they should (probably) be allowed to speak.
So I don’t think actual ‘rules’ are helpful. General ‘reasons’ why we might or might not invite a speaker on the other hand are certainly helpful and I think Larks alludes to some in this post (for example the cause X point!).
I didn’t actually interpret Lark’s post as trying to contribute to the “ongoing prosecution-and-defence of Robin’s character or work”, but instead think it is trying to add to the cancel culture conversation more generally, using Robin’s case as a useful example.
I didn’t actually interpret Lark’s post as trying to contribute to the “ongoing prosecution-and-defence of Robin’s character or work”, but instead think it is trying to add to the cancel culture conversation more generally, using Robin’s case as a useful example.
Sorry, this is on me. The original draft of that sentence read something like “I agree with Khorton below that little is being served by an ongoing prosecution-and-defence of Robin’s character or work, so I’m not going to weigh in again on those specific points and request others replying to this comment do the same, instead focusing on the question of what rules we do/don’t want in general”.
I then cut the sentence down, but missed that in doing so it could now be read as implying that this was Larks’ objective. That wasn’t intentional, and I don’t think this.
I want to open by saying that there are many things about this post I appreciate, and accordingly I upvoted it despite disagreeing with many particulars. Things I appreciate include, but are not limited to:
-The detailed block-by-block approach to making the case for both cancel culture’s prevalence and its potential harm to the movement.
-An attempt to offer a concrete alternative pathway to CEA and local groups that face similar decisions in future.
-Many attempts throughout the post to imagine the viewpoint of someone who might disagree, and preempt the most obvious responses.
But there’s still a piece I think is missing. I don’t fault Larks for this directly, since the post is already very long and covers a lot of ground, but it’s the area that I always find myself wanting to hear more about in these discussions, and so would like to hear more about from either Larks or others in reply to this comment. It relates to both of these quotes.
Given that this post is titled ‘advice for CEA and local groups’, reading this made me hope that this post would end with some suggested ‘rules and standards’ for who we do and do not invite to speak at local events/EAG/etc. Where do we draw the line on ‘behaving immorally’? I strongly agree that whatever rules are being applied should be applied consistently, and think this is most likely to happen when discussed and laid down in a transparent and pre-agreed fashion.
While I have personal views on the Munich case which I have laid out elsewhere, I agree with Khorton below that little is being served by an ongoing prosecution-and-defence of Robin’s character or work. Moreover, my commitment to consistency and transparency is far stronger than my preference for any one set of rules over others. I also expect clear rules about what we will and won’t allow at various levels to naturally insulate against cancel culture. To the extent I agree that cancel culture is an increasing problem, the priority on getting this clear and relying less on ad hoc judgements of individuals has therefore risen, and will likely continue to rise.
So, what rules should we have? What are valid reasons to choose not to invite a speaker?
It’s a good question. I’ve thought about this a bit in the past.
One surprising rule is that overall I think people with a criminal record should still be welcome to contribute in many ways. If you’re in prison, I think you should generally be allowed to e.g. submit papers to physics journals, you shouldn’t be precluded from contributing to humanity and science. Similarly, I think giving remote talks and publishing on the EA Forum should not be totally shut off (though likely hampered in some ways) for people who have behaved badly and broken laws. (Obviously different rules apply for hiring them and inviting them to in-person events, where you need to look at the kind of criminal behavior and see if it’s relevant.)
I feel fairly differently to people who have done damage in and to members of the EA community. Someone like Gleb Tsipursky hasn’t even broken any laws and should still be kicked out and not welcomed back for something like 10 years, and even then he probably won’t have changed enough (most people don’t).
In general EA is outcome-oriented, it’s not a hobby community, there’s sh*t that needs to be done because civilization is inadequate and literally everything is still at stake at this point in history. We want the best contributions and care about that to the exemption of people being fun or something. You hire the best person for the job.
There’s some tension there, and I think overall I am personally willing to put in a lot of resources in my outcome-oriented communities to make sure that people who contribute to the mission are given the spaces and help they need to positively contribute.
I can’t think of a good example that isn’t either of a literal person or too abstract… like, suppose Einstein has terrible allergies to most foods, just can’t be in the space as them. Can we have him at EAG? How much work am I willing to put in for him to have a good EAG? Do I have to figure out a way to feed everyone a very exclusive yet wholesome diet that means he can join? Perhaps.
Similarly, if I’m running a physics conference and Einstein is in prison for murder, will I have him in? Again, I’m pretty open to video calls, I’m pretty willing to put in the time to make sure everyone knows what sort of risks he is, and make sure he isn’t allowed to end up in a vulnerable situation with someone, because it’s worth it for our mission to have him contribute.
You get the picture. Y’know, tradeoffs, where you actually value something and are willing to put in extraordinary effort to make it work.
As I said in an earlier comment, I think we need to evaluate this on a case-by-case basis and ultimately make decisions based on a (rough) calculation of expected benefit vs expected harm of letting someone speak. So for me there isn’t really a standard “line on behaving immorally”. For example, if someone has bad character but it is genuinely plausible they might come up cause X, then I reckon they should (probably) be allowed to speak.
So I don’t think actual ‘rules’ are helpful. General ‘reasons’ why we might or might not invite a speaker on the other hand are certainly helpful and I think Larks alludes to some in this post (for example the cause X point!).
I didn’t actually interpret Lark’s post as trying to contribute to the “ongoing prosecution-and-defence of Robin’s character or work”, but instead think it is trying to add to the cancel culture conversation more generally, using Robin’s case as a useful example.
Thanks for your response.
Sorry, this is on me. The original draft of that sentence read something like “I agree with Khorton below that little is being served by an ongoing prosecution-and-defence of Robin’s character or work, so I’m not going to weigh in again on those specific points and request others replying to this comment do the same, instead focusing on the question of what rules we do/don’t want in general”.
I then cut the sentence down, but missed that in doing so it could now be read as implying that this was Larks’ objective. That wasn’t intentional, and I don’t think this.
(Retracted.)