It seems that with the formulation of the Comparative Interest principle, you already assume an asymmetry. Consider the symmetric (equally reasonable) formulation, by writing ‘better’ instead of ‘worse’ and switching X and Y: An outcome X is in one way better than an outcome Y if, conditional on X, the individuals in X would have a stronger overall interest in outcome X than in Y and, conditional on Y, the individuals in Y would not have an even stronger overall interest in Y than in X.
With this formulation, the procreation asymmetry illustriation looks different: there is an arrow from non-existence to positive existence (top arrow from right to left), but no arrow from negative existence to non-existence.
Your formulation of the comparative interest principle, means that you focus on the tails of the arrows in the figure: an arrow can only be drawn if someone exists (and has interests) at the position of the tail of the arrow. My formulation focuses on the arrowheads: an arrow can only be drawn if someone exists (and has interests) at the position of the head of the arrow. There is a symmetry in choosing heads or tails, so your comparative interest principle is not suitable for a good defense of the procreation asymmetry.
I have another defense, based on my theory of variable critical level utilitarianism (https://stijnbruers.wordpress.com/2018/02/24/variable-critical-level-utilitarianism-as-the-solution-to-population-ethics/). This is a critical level utilitarianism, where now everyone is free to choose their own critical level. The condition is: everyone should be willing to accept a life at the chosen critical level. This means that no-one will choose a negative critical level. Critical levels always have to be positive. That introduces an asymmetry between the positive and the negative, and this asymmetry is at the root of the procreation asymmetry.
It seems that with the formulation of the Comparative Interest principle, you already assume an asymmetry. Consider the symmetric (equally reasonable) formulation, by writing ‘better’ instead of ‘worse’ and switching X and Y
This is a good point, and I should have put more thought into this. I think there’s a pretty good reason to accept my original principle that does not apply to the modified one: mine implies a kind of stability by focusing on arrow tails, while the modified one does not seem to. I did write “stable (in a sense somewhat similar to a decision/game-theoretic one)”, but didn’t expand further on this or consider your modified principle. I’ll do that here.
We first consider the interests of those existing in the given outcome for person-affecting reasons and then only consider the interests in the opposite direction from the other outcome as a potential defeater if the first interests actually pointed towards the other outcome. This is to ensure we don’t change our minds back and forth between the two outcomes. (I see now that we might want to extend the consideration of the interests in the opposite direction to cycles of length > 2.)
That is, if X is worse than Y in my way, and you choose X, you would realize it was a mistake after considering the interests in X that you actually observe and you would wish for Y to have happened instead, and may even try to make the future closer to Y, undoing the work you did for X. In my view, it’s absurd to choose outcomes which you know you will prefer to not have happened. I think we can defend this on grounds of rationality, e.g. avoiding things like money pumps and Dutch books.
On the other hand, with your modified principle, if X is better than Y, and Y happens, the interests of the individuals in X are not the same as the interests in Y, which is the outcome that actually happened. Supposing you choose Y, if there’s a pull from Y to X that would cause you to change your mind about choosing Y, I claim now that it should be from the individuals in Y as they are in Y because that’s your reality (the individuals in X may not even exist), but the modified principle considers overall interests from Y only in the opposite direction (for Y > X), so it has nothing to say about this.
For example (to illustrate or defend the Procreation Asymmetry directly, but I should probably not defend Comparative Interests in this way to defend the Procreation Asymmetry), if people decide to have a child they know will be forever miserable because they don’t count the harm ahead of time, once the child is born (or the decision to have the child is made), the parent(s) may decide to euthanize (abort, etc.) them for the child’s sake. And then, they could do this again and again and again, knowing they’ll change their minds at each point, because at each point, although they might recognize the harm, they don’t count it until after the decision is made. This is basically a money pump for the parents, and the modified principle allows this, while mine does not.
On the other hand, if people decide to not have a child instead of a happy one, there’s no child in that outcome whose interests would push them to have the child. The child with interests in existing is in an outcome that didn’t happen. The child won’t be around to tell them they messed up by not bringing them into existence. So, there’s no money pump.
I have another defense, based on my theory of variable critical level utilitarianism (https://stijnbruers.wordpress.com/2018/02/24/variable-critical-level-utilitarianism-as-the-solution-to-population-ethics/). This is a critical level utilitarianism, where now everyone is free to choose their own critical level. The condition is: everyone should be willing to accept a life at the chosen critical level. This means that no-one will choose a negative critical level. Critical levels always have to be positive. That introduces an asymmetry between the positive and the negative, and this asymmetry is at the root of the procreation asymmetry.
If people are choosing their own critical levels, shouldn’t we just redefine negative existence and positive existence in terms of the situations/identities that correspond to those critical levels? I.e. we didn’t actually put 0 at the right place in the first place, and if we did so, there would be no need to subtract a critical level. I suppose if we want to define negative and positive existence in terms of hedonistic utility (or some other values), but define critical level preferentially, this would make sense.
I’m still not perfectly convinced: there still seems to be a symmetric formulation. You describe it in terms of pushing instead of pulling. But what about the symmetry between expressions “an existing individual in X pushes the situation from X to Y”, versus “an existing individual in Y pulls the situation from X to Y”? Why would there be no money pump in pulling cases if there could be a money pump in a pushing case?
That being said, my gut feeling tells me that your reference to game theoretic instability or money pumps is similar (analogous or perhaps exactly the same?) as my reference to dynamic inconsistency (subgame imperfect situations) that I described in my variable critical level utilitarianism draft paper https://stijnbruers.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/variable-critical-level-utilitarianism-1.pdf. So in the end you could be pointing at a valid argument indeed.
I’m still not perfectly convinced: there still seems to be a symmetric formulation. You describe it in terms of pushing instead of pulling. But what about the symmetry between expressions “an existing individual in X pushes the situation from X to Y”, versus “an existing individual in Y pulls the situation from X to Y”? Why would there be no money pump in pulling cases if there could be a money pump in a pushing case?
In the pushing case, if you make one choice, you’re sometimes compelled to change your mind: if you’ve chosen X, the individuals in X can push you towards Y. In the pulling case, the reasons to change your mind don’t apply in the option you’ve chosen: if you’ve chosen X, the individuals in Y can’t pull you towards Y, because those claims don’t come from X. The claims in Y for Y over X only make a difference if there are also claims in Y for X (or something else) over Y that they defeat, which is captured by “in Y, a stronger overall interest in Y than in X” or “in Y, a stronger overall interest in X than in Y” (or equality).
I’ll break it down into cases to illustrate:
Suppose “an existing individual in X pushes the situation from X to Y”. Then:
1. If you choose X, an individual who exists in X has a claim to Y over X, so you have reason to change your mind to Y, and this reason only applies in X, which you’ve chosen. That’s a reason to change your mind to Y, although it may ultimately be outweighed if there are other claims (but first by other claims in X, and then if there’s an overall claim in X to Y over X, i.e. in the same direction, also by claims in Y). If there are no other reasons to be concerned with, then this is not a stable solution, since you have an overall reason in X to change your mind to Y, and no other reasons in any other outcome to change your mind.
2. If you choose Y, we don’t have enough information to say anything (we don’t know if the individuals in Y have claims to anything else). The claim in X to Y over X does not apply here, since you didn’t choose X, although there could be other claims. If there are no other reasons to be concerned with, then this is a stable solution, since you have no reason in Y to change your mind.
Now, instead suppose “an existing individual in Y pulls the situation from X to Y”. Then:
1. If you choose Y, an individual who exists in Y has a claim to Y over X, so you have a reason to not change your mind to X, but this reason only applies in Y, which you’ve chosen. That’s a reason to not change your mind to X, although it may ultimately be outweighed if there are other claims (but first by other claims in Y, and then if there’s an overall claim in Y to X over Y, i.e. in the opposite direction, also by claims in X). If there are no other reasons to be concerned with, then this is a stable solution, since you have no reason in Y to change your mind.
2. If you choose X, we don’t have enough information to say anything (we don’t know if the individuals in Y have claims to anything else). The claim in Y to Y over X does not apply here, since you didn’t choose Y, although there could be other claims. If there are no other reasons to be concerned with, then this is a stable solution, since you have no reason in X to change your mind.
It seems that with the formulation of the Comparative Interest principle, you already assume an asymmetry. Consider the symmetric (equally reasonable) formulation, by writing ‘better’ instead of ‘worse’ and switching X and Y: An outcome X is in one way better than an outcome Y if, conditional on X, the individuals in X would have a stronger overall interest in outcome X than in Y and, conditional on Y, the individuals in Y would not have an even stronger overall interest in Y than in X.
With this formulation, the procreation asymmetry illustriation looks different: there is an arrow from non-existence to positive existence (top arrow from right to left), but no arrow from negative existence to non-existence.
Your formulation of the comparative interest principle, means that you focus on the tails of the arrows in the figure: an arrow can only be drawn if someone exists (and has interests) at the position of the tail of the arrow. My formulation focuses on the arrowheads: an arrow can only be drawn if someone exists (and has interests) at the position of the head of the arrow. There is a symmetry in choosing heads or tails, so your comparative interest principle is not suitable for a good defense of the procreation asymmetry.
I have another defense, based on my theory of variable critical level utilitarianism (https://stijnbruers.wordpress.com/2018/02/24/variable-critical-level-utilitarianism-as-the-solution-to-population-ethics/). This is a critical level utilitarianism, where now everyone is free to choose their own critical level. The condition is: everyone should be willing to accept a life at the chosen critical level. This means that no-one will choose a negative critical level. Critical levels always have to be positive. That introduces an asymmetry between the positive and the negative, and this asymmetry is at the root of the procreation asymmetry.
This is a good point, and I should have put more thought into this. I think there’s a pretty good reason to accept my original principle that does not apply to the modified one: mine implies a kind of stability by focusing on arrow tails, while the modified one does not seem to. I did write “stable (in a sense somewhat similar to a decision/game-theoretic one)”, but didn’t expand further on this or consider your modified principle. I’ll do that here.
We first consider the interests of those existing in the given outcome for person-affecting reasons and then only consider the interests in the opposite direction from the other outcome as a potential defeater if the first interests actually pointed towards the other outcome. This is to ensure we don’t change our minds back and forth between the two outcomes. (I see now that we might want to extend the consideration of the interests in the opposite direction to cycles of length > 2.)
That is, if X is worse than Y in my way, and you choose X, you would realize it was a mistake after considering the interests in X that you actually observe and you would wish for Y to have happened instead, and may even try to make the future closer to Y, undoing the work you did for X. In my view, it’s absurd to choose outcomes which you know you will prefer to not have happened. I think we can defend this on grounds of rationality, e.g. avoiding things like money pumps and Dutch books.
On the other hand, with your modified principle, if X is better than Y, and Y happens, the interests of the individuals in X are not the same as the interests in Y, which is the outcome that actually happened. Supposing you choose Y, if there’s a pull from Y to X that would cause you to change your mind about choosing Y, I claim now that it should be from the individuals in Y as they are in Y because that’s your reality (the individuals in X may not even exist), but the modified principle considers overall interests from Y only in the opposite direction (for Y > X), so it has nothing to say about this.
For example (to illustrate or defend the Procreation Asymmetry directly, but I should probably not defend Comparative Interests in this way to defend the Procreation Asymmetry), if people decide to have a child they know will be forever miserable because they don’t count the harm ahead of time, once the child is born (or the decision to have the child is made), the parent(s) may decide to euthanize (abort, etc.) them for the child’s sake. And then, they could do this again and again and again, knowing they’ll change their minds at each point, because at each point, although they might recognize the harm, they don’t count it until after the decision is made. This is basically a money pump for the parents, and the modified principle allows this, while mine does not.
On the other hand, if people decide to not have a child instead of a happy one, there’s no child in that outcome whose interests would push them to have the child. The child with interests in existing is in an outcome that didn’t happen. The child won’t be around to tell them they messed up by not bringing them into existence. So, there’s no money pump.
If people are choosing their own critical levels, shouldn’t we just redefine negative existence and positive existence in terms of the situations/identities that correspond to those critical levels? I.e. we didn’t actually put 0 at the right place in the first place, and if we did so, there would be no need to subtract a critical level. I suppose if we want to define negative and positive existence in terms of hedonistic utility (or some other values), but define critical level preferentially, this would make sense.
I’m still not perfectly convinced: there still seems to be a symmetric formulation. You describe it in terms of pushing instead of pulling. But what about the symmetry between expressions “an existing individual in X pushes the situation from X to Y”, versus “an existing individual in Y pulls the situation from X to Y”? Why would there be no money pump in pulling cases if there could be a money pump in a pushing case?
That being said, my gut feeling tells me that your reference to game theoretic instability or money pumps is similar (analogous or perhaps exactly the same?) as my reference to dynamic inconsistency (subgame imperfect situations) that I described in my variable critical level utilitarianism draft paper https://stijnbruers.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/variable-critical-level-utilitarianism-1.pdf. So in the end you could be pointing at a valid argument indeed.
In the pushing case, if you make one choice, you’re sometimes compelled to change your mind: if you’ve chosen X, the individuals in X can push you towards Y. In the pulling case, the reasons to change your mind don’t apply in the option you’ve chosen: if you’ve chosen X, the individuals in Y can’t pull you towards Y, because those claims don’t come from X. The claims in Y for Y over X only make a difference if there are also claims in Y for X (or something else) over Y that they defeat, which is captured by “in Y, a stronger overall interest in Y than in X” or “in Y, a stronger overall interest in X than in Y” (or equality).
I’ll break it down into cases to illustrate:
Suppose “an existing individual in X pushes the situation from X to Y”. Then:
1. If you choose X, an individual who exists in X has a claim to Y over X, so you have reason to change your mind to Y, and this reason only applies in X, which you’ve chosen. That’s a reason to change your mind to Y, although it may ultimately be outweighed if there are other claims (but first by other claims in X, and then if there’s an overall claim in X to Y over X, i.e. in the same direction, also by claims in Y). If there are no other reasons to be concerned with, then this is not a stable solution, since you have an overall reason in X to change your mind to Y, and no other reasons in any other outcome to change your mind.
2. If you choose Y, we don’t have enough information to say anything (we don’t know if the individuals in Y have claims to anything else). The claim in X to Y over X does not apply here, since you didn’t choose X, although there could be other claims. If there are no other reasons to be concerned with, then this is a stable solution, since you have no reason in Y to change your mind.
Now, instead suppose “an existing individual in Y pulls the situation from X to Y”. Then:
1. If you choose Y, an individual who exists in Y has a claim to Y over X, so you have a reason to not change your mind to X, but this reason only applies in Y, which you’ve chosen. That’s a reason to not change your mind to X, although it may ultimately be outweighed if there are other claims (but first by other claims in Y, and then if there’s an overall claim in Y to X over Y, i.e. in the opposite direction, also by claims in X). If there are no other reasons to be concerned with, then this is a stable solution, since you have no reason in Y to change your mind.
2. If you choose X, we don’t have enough information to say anything (we don’t know if the individuals in Y have claims to anything else). The claim in Y to Y over X does not apply here, since you didn’t choose Y, although there could be other claims. If there are no other reasons to be concerned with, then this is a stable solution, since you have no reason in X to change your mind.
got it! :-)