Thank you for this! I actually had myself had some thoughts much akin to Anthony DiGiovanni’s and also satisfied myself with my own version of bracketing (I referred to it in my mind as “local impact” as opposed to the cosmic-scale impact of which we can not really know anything about) without having any idea that others had had similar thoughts and had even given them names!! XD It’s so satisfying to know others have grappled with similar doubts!
Here’s my attempt at Option 3:
My justification for using bracketing (i.e. discounting cosmic-level uncertainty about all the possible ramifications and externalities of my actions) is that I am ultimately self-interested in wanting to do ‘altruism’: I am only ‘altruistic’ because it feels genuinely nicer to *me* to live in a world where others are healthy/happy/flourishing compared to one where they’re not. Therefore, I shouldn’t concern myself with consequences or externalities that are too much outside of my immediate field of perception / conceptualisation.
Does that make me a bad “”“altruist””” in absolute terms? Probably. But practically:
Either I’m right that my little ‘good’ actions as I construe them to be are actually good on a cosmic scale OR
I’m not right in my assessment that this is good on a cosmic scale and my actions are actually BAD, but then there’s no way for me to know that and I’m still living under the blissful impression that I’m a good person / achieving good in the world, which checks my self interest box ✅ OR
[The hypothesis I believe in the most, and the most likely in my view] …When viewed across the various filters of scale and time, my actions are simultaneously positive and negative (to illustrate this I recommend reading the Zen parable of The Chinese Farmer)
I am comfortable in my cluelessness when trying to do good because all of my attempts to do good actually end up being a net positive for me in terms of my own self-interest and in the worst case scenario I am either happily and innocently ignorant of my evilness (not great but oh well) or my ‘negative’ actions will be endlessly viewed either as positive or negative depending on the cosmic viewpoint.
PS: I also enjoy the intellectual challenge of finding effective solutions to what, from my limited cosmic vantage point as a human alive on Earth in the 21st century, consider to be ‘problems’. Another point in terms of self-interested reasons to do
PPS: if somebody enjoyed reading this and is interested in how the problem of cluelessness when trying to do good is treated in ancient texts, I’m pretty convinced that Arjuna’s dilemma in the Bhagavad Gita is about this (he is about to basically fight his cousins to death on ‘moral’ grounds and wonders whether this is the actual right action, and has a dialogue with Krishna about the ‘art’ (?) and nature of right actions.)
My understanding is that Anthony agrees that there are still reasons to do things:
First, the unawareness argument doesn’t imply that “nothing we do matters” all things considered. It only implies that impartial altruism, or any very far-reaching value system, isn’t action-guiding. Other values and moral norms still matter to us, for example, rules like avoiding dishonesty or virtues like compassion. These can be action-guiding even if we’re clueless about total consequences.
I think your justification “because all of my attempts to do good actually end up being a net positive for me in terms of my own self-interest” doesn’t disagree with his conclusion?
As I said, I’m accepting the argument (that’s why I chose option 3!).
Option 3: Offer a constructive response
Accept the argument—and tell us what the impartial altruist should do anyway. Grant the conclusion, but offer a constructive response: defend a solution Anthony considers and rejects (e.g. wagering), or propose something entirely original.[3]I
I indeed can’t find any impartial-altruistic rational reasons to pick one course of action over another if I reason at a cosmic scale, but my response explained why people should do effective altruism anyway (self-interest)! 😁
NB: I only read the summary by Toby and didn’t engage with the larger body of posts from Anthony and others, so I most probably am missing crucial nuance TBF!
About the small portion of text you quoted (could you please let me know where it’s from btw? EDIT: Just found it on your link, will read full text later!): I’m not sure I understand that compassion or avoiding dishonesty are different from Effective Altruism. To me the latter is the same as the formers but applied at a slightly different scale (e.g. Effective Altruism advocates being compassionate about all humans on the planet equally instead of say, preferring to show more compassion to those who are local to us). Therefore I also don’t understand the point about compassion or avoiding dishonesty being able to act as action-guiding principles Vs EA not being able to. Finally I don’t really understand what ‘action-guiding’ means as a concept—from your text it seems it has a precise definition which I’d love to learn more about.
Thank you for this! I actually had myself had some thoughts much akin to Anthony DiGiovanni’s and also satisfied myself with my own version of bracketing (I referred to it in my mind as “local impact” as opposed to the cosmic-scale impact of which we can not really know anything about) without having any idea that others had had similar thoughts and had even given them names!! XD It’s so satisfying to know others have grappled with similar doubts!
Here’s my attempt at Option 3:
My justification for using bracketing (i.e. discounting cosmic-level uncertainty about all the possible ramifications and externalities of my actions) is that I am ultimately self-interested in wanting to do ‘altruism’: I am only ‘altruistic’ because it feels genuinely nicer to *me* to live in a world where others are healthy/happy/flourishing compared to one where they’re not. Therefore, I shouldn’t concern myself with consequences or externalities that are too much outside of my immediate field of perception / conceptualisation.
Does that make me a bad “”“altruist””” in absolute terms? Probably. But practically:
Either I’m right that my little ‘good’ actions as I construe them to be are actually good on a cosmic scale OR
I’m not right in my assessment that this is good on a cosmic scale and my actions are actually BAD, but then there’s no way for me to know that and I’m still living under the blissful impression that I’m a good person / achieving good in the world, which checks my self interest box ✅ OR
[The hypothesis I believe in the most, and the most likely in my view] …When viewed across the various filters of scale and time, my actions are simultaneously positive and negative (to illustrate this I recommend reading the Zen parable of The Chinese Farmer)
I am comfortable in my cluelessness when trying to do good because all of my attempts to do good actually end up being a net positive for me in terms of my own self-interest and in the worst case scenario I am either happily and innocently ignorant of my evilness (not great but oh well) or my ‘negative’ actions will be endlessly viewed either as positive or negative depending on the cosmic viewpoint.
PS: I also enjoy the intellectual challenge of finding effective solutions to what, from my limited cosmic vantage point as a human alive on Earth in the 21st century, consider to be ‘problems’. Another point in terms of self-interested reasons to do
PPS: if somebody enjoyed reading this and is interested in how the problem of cluelessness when trying to do good is treated in ancient texts, I’m pretty convinced that Arjuna’s dilemma in the Bhagavad Gita is about this (he is about to basically fight his cousins to death on ‘moral’ grounds and wonders whether this is the actual right action, and has a dialogue with Krishna about the ‘art’ (?) and nature of right actions.)
My understanding is that Anthony agrees that there are still reasons to do things:
I think your justification “because all of my attempts to do good actually end up being a net positive for me in terms of my own self-interest” doesn’t disagree with his conclusion?
Thanks Ben!
As I said, I’m accepting the argument (that’s why I chose option 3!).
I indeed can’t find any impartial-altruistic rational reasons to pick one course of action over another if I reason at a cosmic scale, but my response explained why people should do effective altruism anyway (self-interest)! 😁
NB: I only read the summary by Toby and didn’t engage with the larger body of posts from Anthony and others, so I most probably am missing crucial nuance TBF!
About the small portion of text you quoted (could you please let me know where it’s from btw? EDIT: Just found it on your link, will read full text later!): I’m not sure I understand that compassion or avoiding dishonesty are different from Effective Altruism. To me the latter is the same as the formers but applied at a slightly different scale (e.g. Effective Altruism advocates being compassionate about all humans on the planet equally instead of say, preferring to show more compassion to those who are local to us). Therefore I also don’t understand the point about compassion or avoiding dishonesty being able to act as action-guiding principles Vs EA not being able to. Finally I don’t really understand what ‘action-guiding’ means as a concept—from your text it seems it has a precise definition which I’d love to learn more about.