Thank you for sharing Minh, I think this is one of the most important updates.
If our goal is (as I think it should be) only to figure out whether we want to interact with any of these people in the future, and not to exact retribution for past wrongs against third parties, then we don’t need to know exactly what happened between nonlinear and Alice and Chloe. That’s good, since we probably never will. What does seem to be the case is this. (1) Everybody involved agrees that something went badly wrong in the relationships between Kat/Emerson and Alice/Chloe, though they may dramatically disagree about what. (2) Kat/Emerson have changed their behavior in a way that prevents a repeat. Your testimony is good evidence for 2. And given that, I don’t think I will update much on whether I want to interact with them in the future. So thank you for your testimony.
(disclaimers: my past interactions with Kat have been positive but not extensive. I don’t believe I have interacted with Emerson. And I was not asked to comment by anyone involved.)
(2) Kat/Emerson have changed their behavior in a way that prevents a repeat. Your testimony is good evidence for 2.
Here’s what I would need to see from Kat and Emerson to lend any credence to the idea that they’ve changed their behaviour in a way that prevents them from mistreating employees again:
1. They acknowledge the many things they did wrong described in the OP and admit that they were wrong, without trying to downplay or rationalize them.
2. They apologize for these things (and give a good apology that isn’t defensive or weaselly or victim-blaming).
3. They attempt to make amends in some way (e.g. giving a sum of money to Alice and Chloe for emotional damages).
4. They commit to changing their future behaviour in specific ways (e.g. hiring an accountant or bookkeeper for Nonlinear; paying all future employees a salary agreed to beforehand in a binding legal contract — this is just the tip of the iceberg).
Even if we assume that all of the allegations are true (which seems unwarranted when the evidence is hearsay from two anonymous sources), you seem to think that remorse is the only mental state that could cause people to change their behavior. Why do you think that?
the evidence is hearsay from two anonymous sources
I think even with just the behaviours that Nonlinear has publicly confirmed, there is cause for major concern.
you seem to think that remorse is the only mental state that could cause people to change their behavior. Why do you think that?
The emotion of guilt is usually what leads to accountability and behaviour change. See e.g. this video with clinical psychologist June Tangney, co-author of the book Shame and Guilt.
I think even with just the behaviours that Nonlinear has publicly confirmed, there is cause for major concern.
Lets look at one specific claim that you pointed to—whether there was a legal contract agreed beforehand specifying a salary. Unless I’ve missed something, I don’t believe nonlinear has publicly commented on this. All I’m saying is don’t let your confidence exceed the strength of the evidence.
The emotion of guilt is usually what leads to accountability and behaviour change. See e.g. this video with clinical psychologist June Tangney, co-author of the book Shame and Guilt.
It is certainly one emotion that can. But your video just talks about guilt and shame, it doesn’t talk about other emotions. I would expect all emotions have the potential to change behavior under the right circumstances—otherwise, they wouldn’t serve an evolutionary purpose. I can think of instances where I’ve altered my behavior after social drama out of fear of getting hurt again, rather than guilt or shame. So when I look at someone else, I don’t need to settle on a particular explanation of why they’ve changed their behavior to accept evidence that they have.
Thank you for sharing Minh, I think this is one of the most important updates.
If our goal is (as I think it should be) only to figure out whether we want to interact with any of these people in the future, and not to exact retribution for past wrongs against third parties, then we don’t need to know exactly what happened between nonlinear and Alice and Chloe. That’s good, since we probably never will. What does seem to be the case is this. (1) Everybody involved agrees that something went badly wrong in the relationships between Kat/Emerson and Alice/Chloe, though they may dramatically disagree about what. (2) Kat/Emerson have changed their behavior in a way that prevents a repeat. Your testimony is good evidence for 2. And given that, I don’t think I will update much on whether I want to interact with them in the future. So thank you for your testimony.
(disclaimers: my past interactions with Kat have been positive but not extensive. I don’t believe I have interacted with Emerson. And I was not asked to comment by anyone involved.)
Here’s what I would need to see from Kat and Emerson to lend any credence to the idea that they’ve changed their behaviour in a way that prevents them from mistreating employees again:
1. They acknowledge the many things they did wrong described in the OP and admit that they were wrong, without trying to downplay or rationalize them.
2. They apologize for these things (and give a good apology that isn’t defensive or weaselly or victim-blaming).
3. They attempt to make amends in some way (e.g. giving a sum of money to Alice and Chloe for emotional damages).
4. They commit to changing their future behaviour in specific ways (e.g. hiring an accountant or bookkeeper for Nonlinear; paying all future employees a salary agreed to beforehand in a binding legal contract — this is just the tip of the iceberg).
Even if we assume that all of the allegations are true (which seems unwarranted when the evidence is hearsay from two anonymous sources), you seem to think that remorse is the only mental state that could cause people to change their behavior. Why do you think that?
I think even with just the behaviours that Nonlinear has publicly confirmed, there is cause for major concern.
The emotion of guilt is usually what leads to accountability and behaviour change. See e.g. this video with clinical psychologist June Tangney, co-author of the book Shame and Guilt.
Lets look at one specific claim that you pointed to—whether there was a legal contract agreed beforehand specifying a salary. Unless I’ve missed something, I don’t believe nonlinear has publicly commented on this. All I’m saying is don’t let your confidence exceed the strength of the evidence.
It is certainly one emotion that can. But your video just talks about guilt and shame, it doesn’t talk about other emotions. I would expect all emotions have the potential to change behavior under the right circumstances—otherwise, they wouldn’t serve an evolutionary purpose. I can think of instances where I’ve altered my behavior after social drama out of fear of getting hurt again, rather than guilt or shame. So when I look at someone else, I don’t need to settle on a particular explanation of why they’ve changed their behavior to accept evidence that they have.