The identification of EA with a small set of cause areas has many manifestations, but the one I’m mostly worried about is the feeling shared by many in the community that if they work on a cause that is not particularly prioritized by the movement (like feminism) then what they do “is not really EA”, even if they use evidence and reason to find the most impactful avenues to tackle the problem they try to solve….However, this calculus can be somewhat incomplete, as it doesn’t take into account the personal circumstances of the particular biologist debating her career.
I think I strongly agree with this and I expect most EA do too.
From the perspective of the entire EA movement, it might be a better strategy to allocate the few individuals who possess the rare “EA mindset” across a diverse set of causes, rather than stick everyone in the same 3-4 cause areas. Work done by EAs (who explicitly think in terms of impact) could have a multiplying effect on the work and resources that are already allocated to causes. Pioneer EAs who choose such “EA-neglected” causes can make a significant difference, just because an EA-like perspective is rare and needed in those areas, even in causes that are well-established outside of EA (like human rights or nature conservation). For example, they could carry out valuable intra-cause prioritization (as opposed to inter-cause prioritization).
This is a really different thought than your other above and I want to comment more to make sure I understand.
While agreeing with the essence, I think I differ and I want to get at the crux of the difference:
Overall, I think “using data”, cost effective analysis, measurement and valuation, aren’t far from mainstream in major charities. To get a sense of this, I have spoken (worked with?) to leaders in say, environmental movements and they specifically “talk the talk”, e.g. there’s specific grants for “data science” like infrastructure, for example. However, while nominally trying, many of these charities don’t succeed—the reason is an immense topic beyond the scope of this comment or post.
But the point is that it seems hard to make these methodological or leadership changes that motivates you dissemination.
Note that it seems very likely we would agree and trust any EA who reported that any particular movement or cause area would benefit from better methods.
However, actually effecting change is really difficult.
To be tangible, imagine trying to get the Extinction Rebellion to use measurement and surveys to regularly interrogate their theory of change.
For another example, the leadership and cohesion of many movements can be far lower than they appear. Together with the fact that applying reasoning might foreclose large sections of activity or initiatives, this would make implementation impractical.
While rational, data driven and reasoned approaches are valuable, it’s unclear if EA is the path to improving this, and this is a headwind to your point that EAs should disseminate widely. I guess the counterpoint would be that focus is valuable and this supports focus on cause areas closer to the normal sense that you argue against.
About your second point, I totally agree with the spirit of what you say, specifically that:
1. Contrary to what might be implied from my post, EAs are clearly not the only ones who think that impact, measurement and evidence are important, and these concepts are also gaining popularity outside of EA.
2. Even in an area where most current actors lack the motivation or skills to act in an impact-oriented way, there are more conditions that have to be met before I would deem it high-impact to work in this area. In particular, there need to be some indications that the other people acting in this area would be interested or persuaded to change their priorities once evidence is presented to them.
My experience working with non-EA charities is similar to yours: while they also talk about evidence and impact, it seems that in most cases they don’t really think about these topics straightly. I’ve found that in most cases it’s not very helpful to have this conversation with them, because, in the end, they are not really open to change their behavior based on evidence (I think it’s more a lip service for charities to say they want to do impact evaluation, because it’s becoming cool and popular these days). But in some cases (probably a minority of non-EA charities), there is genuine interest to learn how to be more impactful through impact evaluation. In these cases I think that having EAs around might be helpful.
I think we are probably agreed that we should be cautious against prescribing EAs to go to charities or cause areas where the culture doesn’t seem welcoming. Especially given the younger age of many EAs, and lower income and career capital produced by some charities, this could be a very difficult experience or even a trap for some people.
I think I have updated based on your comment. It seems that having not just acceptance but also active discussion or awareness of “non-canonical” cause areas seems useful.
I wonder, to what degree is your post or concerns addressed if new cause areas were substantively explored by EAs to add to the “EA roster”? (even if few cause areas were ultimately “added” as a result, e.g. because they aren’t feasible).
I totally agree with you that many charities and causes can be a trap for young EAs and put their long-term career in danger. In some cases I think it’s also true of classic EA cause areas, if people end up doing work that doesn’t really fit their skill set or doesn’t develop their career capital. I think this is pretty well acknowledged and discussed in EA circles, so I’m not too worried about it (with the exception, maybe, that I think one of the possible traps is to lock someone with career capital that only fits EA-like work, thereby blocking them from working outside of EA).
As to your question, if new cause areas were substantively explored by EAs, that would mitigate some of my concerns, but not all of them. In particular, besides having community members theoretically exploring diverse causes and writing posts on the forum summarizing their thinking process (which is beneficial), I’d also like to see some EAs actively trying to work in more diverse areas (what I called the bottom-up approach), and I’d like the greater EA community to be supportive of that.
Hi,
I think I strongly agree with this and I expect most EA do too.
My interpretation is that EA as a normative, prescriptive guide for life doesn’t seem right. Indeed, if anything, there’s evidence that EA doesn’t really do a good job, or maybe even substantively neglects this while appearing to do so, in a pernicious way. From a “do no harm” perspective, addressing this is important. This seems like a “communication problem” (which seems historically undervalued in EA and other communities).
This is a really different thought than your other above and I want to comment more to make sure I understand.
While agreeing with the essence, I think I differ and I want to get at the crux of the difference:
Overall, I think “using data”, cost effective analysis, measurement and valuation, aren’t far from mainstream in major charities. To get a sense of this, I have spoken (worked with?) to leaders in say, environmental movements and they specifically “talk the talk”, e.g. there’s specific grants for “data science” like infrastructure, for example. However, while nominally trying, many of these charities don’t succeed—the reason is an immense topic beyond the scope of this comment or post.
But the point is that it seems hard to make these methodological or leadership changes that motivates you dissemination.
Note that it seems very likely we would agree and trust any EA who reported that any particular movement or cause area would benefit from better methods.
However, actually effecting change is really difficult.
To be tangible, imagine trying to get the Extinction Rebellion to use measurement and surveys to regularly interrogate their theory of change.
For another example, the leadership and cohesion of many movements can be far lower than they appear. Together with the fact that applying reasoning might foreclose large sections of activity or initiatives, this would make implementation impractical.
While rational, data driven and reasoned approaches are valuable, it’s unclear if EA is the path to improving this, and this is a headwind to your point that EAs should disseminate widely. I guess the counterpoint would be that focus is valuable and this supports focus on cause areas closer to the normal sense that you argue against.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
About your second point, I totally agree with the spirit of what you say, specifically that:
1. Contrary to what might be implied from my post, EAs are clearly not the only ones who think that impact, measurement and evidence are important, and these concepts are also gaining popularity outside of EA.
2. Even in an area where most current actors lack the motivation or skills to act in an impact-oriented way, there are more conditions that have to be met before I would deem it high-impact to work in this area. In particular, there need to be some indications that the other people acting in this area would be interested or persuaded to change their priorities once evidence is presented to them.
My experience working with non-EA charities is similar to yours: while they also talk about evidence and impact, it seems that in most cases they don’t really think about these topics straightly. I’ve found that in most cases it’s not very helpful to have this conversation with them, because, in the end, they are not really open to change their behavior based on evidence (I think it’s more a lip service for charities to say they want to do impact evaluation, because it’s becoming cool and popular these days). But in some cases (probably a minority of non-EA charities), there is genuine interest to learn how to be more impactful through impact evaluation. In these cases I think that having EAs around might be helpful.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I think we are probably agreed that we should be cautious against prescribing EAs to go to charities or cause areas where the culture doesn’t seem welcoming. Especially given the younger age of many EAs, and lower income and career capital produced by some charities, this could be a very difficult experience or even a trap for some people.
I think I have updated based on your comment. It seems that having not just acceptance but also active discussion or awareness of “non-canonical” cause areas seems useful.
I wonder, to what degree is your post or concerns addressed if new cause areas were substantively explored by EAs to add to the “EA roster”? (even if few cause areas were ultimately “added” as a result, e.g. because they aren’t feasible).
I totally agree with you that many charities and causes can be a trap for young EAs and put their long-term career in danger. In some cases I think it’s also true of classic EA cause areas, if people end up doing work that doesn’t really fit their skill set or doesn’t develop their career capital. I think this is pretty well acknowledged and discussed in EA circles, so I’m not too worried about it (with the exception, maybe, that I think one of the possible traps is to lock someone with career capital that only fits EA-like work, thereby blocking them from working outside of EA).
As to your question, if new cause areas were substantively explored by EAs, that would mitigate some of my concerns, but not all of them. In particular, besides having community members theoretically exploring diverse causes and writing posts on the forum summarizing their thinking process (which is beneficial), I’d also like to see some EAs actively trying to work in more diverse areas (what I called the bottom-up approach), and I’d like the greater EA community to be supportive of that.