Moral uncertainty doesn’t give you what you want. It gives you everything and nothing. You don’t use it to question your own values, but only as a rhetorical device to get other people to question their values, and only those that disagree with your current values. Maybe the Logic of the Larder goes through. Maybe animal farming is good for wild animals. Maybe animal suffering is intrinsically morally good. You can’t point to uncertainty to privilege your current moral preference.
The costs to slaughterhouse workers are internalized by the voluntary nature of slaughterhouse work. People make mistakes but by and large you have to pay them to compensate for risk and unpleasantness in the workplace, or else they’ll find a different job.
I didn’t know about the crime rates near slaughterhouses. A possible hypothesis might be that sociopaths or people with a penchant for violence are more likely to work in slaughterhouses, due to the violent nature of the work. If they also live nearer, this could explain the difference. If so, these people might commit crimes elsewhere in a world without slaughterhouses. But I’m only speculating.
Health and environmental effects are probably good arguments. It would have been better for us all if China had banned live markets in 2017. However, the unhealthy nature of overeating animal products are internalized also. No one is forced to eat more meat than is good for them. The current vegan substitutes aren’t healthy either. Too much soy can cause infertility, to name just one example.
I do want to spite animal advocates. I didn’t appreciate that they declared I should have human rights only if I support chicken rights. This was after they advocated bans on animal products even though we have no good substitutes. In fairness to the EA movement, this hasn’t happened here, but it did happen. This was the exact opposite of “gains from trade through compromise” and “cooperating with other value systems”. My response to it is to boycott their ideological goals.
My general observation is that animal rights advocates feel morally superior to omnivores, and expect the world to treat them accordingly. It virtually never occurs to them that other people simply don’t share their pro-animal preferences, and if they want us to forgo consumer surplus, they have to compensate us for that. You’re free to produce vegan food as a non-profit and sell it at cost, if you want to shift the indifference curves of omnivores.
I don’t intrinsically care about the suffering of others. I just want to live in a society that leaves me alone, according to norms that we don’t have to harass, backstab and torture each other. That requires human rights (or something functionally equivalent like trustworthy alliances). I don’t see what chicken rights can possibly do for this end. Looking at the statements of animal activists, all it did was make them more hostile to omnivores.
Moral uncertainty doesn’t give you what you want. It gives you everything and nothing. You don’t use it to question your own values, but only as a rhetorical device to get other people to question their values, and only those that disagree with your current values. Maybe the Logic of the Larder goes through. Maybe animal farming is good for wild animals. Maybe animal suffering is intrinsically morally good. You can’t point to uncertainty to privilege your current moral preference.
I think if you reflect more on the alternatives (which you should try to fit within whole views, not just judge claims in isolation), some will seem more satisfactory to you than others, so you would give them more weight. The logic of the larder might go through or animal farming might be good because of the effects on wild animals, but, all else equal, it still seems (to me) far more plausible for more suffering in farmed animals to be worse than less suffering than for the opposite to be true, which would count against factory farmed animals, or at least chickens and pigs (they’re among the worst treated, in my view).
Maybe animal suffering is intrinsically morally good.
Do you find views according to which this is true more satisfactory than those according to which animal suffering is intrinsically morally bad? I think it would be hard to justify that human suffering is not intrinsically morally good if animal suffering is intrinsically morally good.
or else they’ll find a different job
I think it’s often not so easy for people to just leave their job and find another, especially if they have children to take care of.
A possible hypothesis might be that sociopaths or people with a penchant for violence are more likely to work in slaughterhouses, due to the violent nature of the work. If they also live nearer, this could explain the difference. If so, these people might commit crimes elsewhere in a world without slaughterhouses. But I’m only speculating.
Yes, a priori, I think that could plausibly account for the effect. This study found an association at the county-level, so for self-selection effects to account for all of it, it would mean people would be moving between counties (which can be pretty big) to work at slaughterhouses, which is of course still plausible, but makes it seem less likely. Some other studies are listed here. I think the fact that they are at higher risk for PTSD is pretty suggestive that slaughterhouse work could affect people in this way, too.
I didn’t appreciate that they declared I should have human rights only if I support chicken rights.
I don’t think this is at all representative of animal advocates. I think they tend to be more progressive and supporting of human rights generally:
You’re free to produce vegan food as a non-profit and sell it at cost, if you want to shift the indifference curves of omnivores.
I think for-profits, or donating to or otherwise supporting the Good Food Institute would be more cost-effective in shifting demand, and this is exactly what many animal advocates do. I’ve donated to GFI.
I don’t intrinsically care about the suffering of others.
Do you care about others or their wellbeing for their own sake at all for any other reason?
″ I think it’s often not so easy for people to just leave their job and find another, especially if they have children to take care of. ”
Yes, elasticity isn’t absolute, but in the long run it matters a lot. In the extreme, you can walk out and be jobless rather than accepting bad conditions. That alone puts a cap on how bad conditions can be, although perhaps some risks can be hard to estimate.
″ Do you care about others or their wellbeing for their own sake at all for any other reason? ”
Yes, if I have positive personal relationships with them or they have earned it. However, I also do the negative version (revenge), and in many cases I find that more motivating. So there’s no benevolence bias on my end. I have yet to find a philosophical reason why I should have one.
Thanks for the interesting discussion, I’ll end it at this point.
Many good points.
Moral uncertainty doesn’t give you what you want. It gives you everything and nothing. You don’t use it to question your own values, but only as a rhetorical device to get other people to question their values, and only those that disagree with your current values. Maybe the Logic of the Larder goes through. Maybe animal farming is good for wild animals. Maybe animal suffering is intrinsically morally good. You can’t point to uncertainty to privilege your current moral preference.
The costs to slaughterhouse workers are internalized by the voluntary nature of slaughterhouse work. People make mistakes but by and large you have to pay them to compensate for risk and unpleasantness in the workplace, or else they’ll find a different job.
I didn’t know about the crime rates near slaughterhouses. A possible hypothesis might be that sociopaths or people with a penchant for violence are more likely to work in slaughterhouses, due to the violent nature of the work. If they also live nearer, this could explain the difference. If so, these people might commit crimes elsewhere in a world without slaughterhouses. But I’m only speculating.
Health and environmental effects are probably good arguments. It would have been better for us all if China had banned live markets in 2017. However, the unhealthy nature of overeating animal products are internalized also. No one is forced to eat more meat than is good for them. The current vegan substitutes aren’t healthy either. Too much soy can cause infertility, to name just one example.
I do want to spite animal advocates. I didn’t appreciate that they declared I should have human rights only if I support chicken rights. This was after they advocated bans on animal products even though we have no good substitutes. In fairness to the EA movement, this hasn’t happened here, but it did happen. This was the exact opposite of “gains from trade through compromise” and “cooperating with other value systems”. My response to it is to boycott their ideological goals.
My general observation is that animal rights advocates feel morally superior to omnivores, and expect the world to treat them accordingly. It virtually never occurs to them that other people simply don’t share their pro-animal preferences, and if they want us to forgo consumer surplus, they have to compensate us for that. You’re free to produce vegan food as a non-profit and sell it at cost, if you want to shift the indifference curves of omnivores.
I don’t intrinsically care about the suffering of others. I just want to live in a society that leaves me alone, according to norms that we don’t have to harass, backstab and torture each other. That requires human rights (or something functionally equivalent like trustworthy alliances). I don’t see what chicken rights can possibly do for this end. Looking at the statements of animal activists, all it did was make them more hostile to omnivores.
I think if you reflect more on the alternatives (which you should try to fit within whole views, not just judge claims in isolation), some will seem more satisfactory to you than others, so you would give them more weight. The logic of the larder might go through or animal farming might be good because of the effects on wild animals, but, all else equal, it still seems (to me) far more plausible for more suffering in farmed animals to be worse than less suffering than for the opposite to be true, which would count against factory farmed animals, or at least chickens and pigs (they’re among the worst treated, in my view).
Do you find views according to which this is true more satisfactory than those according to which animal suffering is intrinsically morally bad? I think it would be hard to justify that human suffering is not intrinsically morally good if animal suffering is intrinsically morally good.
I think it’s often not so easy for people to just leave their job and find another, especially if they have children to take care of.
Yes, a priori, I think that could plausibly account for the effect. This study found an association at the county-level, so for self-selection effects to account for all of it, it would mean people would be moving between counties (which can be pretty big) to work at slaughterhouses, which is of course still plausible, but makes it seem less likely. Some other studies are listed here. I think the fact that they are at higher risk for PTSD is pretty suggestive that slaughterhouse work could affect people in this way, too.
I don’t think this is at all representative of animal advocates. I think they tend to be more progressive and supporting of human rights generally:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/26/who-supports-animal-rights-heres-what-we-found/
https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/BFJ-12-2014-0409/full/html
I think for-profits, or donating to or otherwise supporting the Good Food Institute would be more cost-effective in shifting demand, and this is exactly what many animal advocates do. I’ve donated to GFI.
Do you care about others or their wellbeing for their own sake at all for any other reason?
″ I think it’s often not so easy for people to just leave their job and find another, especially if they have children to take care of. ”
Yes, elasticity isn’t absolute, but in the long run it matters a lot. In the extreme, you can walk out and be jobless rather than accepting bad conditions. That alone puts a cap on how bad conditions can be, although perhaps some risks can be hard to estimate.
″ Do you care about others or their wellbeing for their own sake at all for any other reason? ”
Yes, if I have positive personal relationships with them or they have earned it. However, I also do the negative version (revenge), and in many cases I find that more motivating. So there’s no benevolence bias on my end. I have yet to find a philosophical reason why I should have one.
Thanks for the interesting discussion, I’ll end it at this point.