This is true, but to the extent that these changes would make EA look/act like already-existing actors, I think it is fair to consider (1) how effective the similiar actors are, and (2) the marginal benefit of having more muscle in or adjacent to the space those actors occupy.
Also, because I think a clear leftward drift would have significant costs, I also think identifying the drift and those costs is a fair critique. As you move closer to a political pole, the range of people who will want to engage with your movement is likely to dwindle. Most people don’t want to work in, or donate to, a movement that doesnt feel respecting toward them—which I think is a strong tendency of almost all political poles.
At present, I think you can be moderately conservative or at least centrist by US standards and find a role and a place where you feel like you fit in. I think giving that range up has significant costs.
Also, because I think a clear leftward drift would have significant costs, I also think identifying the drift and those costs is a fair critique. As you move closer to a political pole, the range of people who will want to engage with your movement is likely to dwindle.
I think a moderate leftward shift on certain issues would actually increase popularity. The current dominant politics of EA seems to be a kind of steven pinker style techno-liberalism, with a free speech absolutist stance and a vague unease about social justice activism. Whether or not you agree with this position, I think it’s popularity among the general public is fairly low, and a shift to mainstream liberal (or mainstream conservative) opinions would make EA more appealling overall. For example, a policy of banning all discussion of “race science” would in the long term probably bring in much more people than it deterred, because almost everybody finds discussing that topic unpleasant.
If your response to this is “wait, there are other principles at play that we need to take into consideration here, not just chasing what is popular”, then you understand the reasons why I don’t find ” these positions would make EA more left wing” to be a very strong argument against them. If following principles pushes EA one way or the other, then so be it.
Fwiw, I think your view that a leftward shift in EA would increase popularity is probably Americocentric. I doubt it is true if you were to consider EA as a global movement rather than just a western one.
Also, fwiw, I’ve lost track of how many people I’ve seen dismiss EA as “dumb left-wing social justice”. EAs also tend to think the consequence of saying something is what matters. So we tend to be disliked both by free speech absolutists and by people who will never concede that properly discussing some controversial topics might be more net positive than the harm caused by talking about them. Some also see EA as tech-phobic. Steven Pinker famously dismissed EA concerns about AI Alignment. If you spend time outside of EA in tech-optimism-liberal circles you see a clear divide. It isn’t culturally the same. Despite this, I think I’ve also lost count of how many people I’ve seen dismiss EA as ” right-leaning libertarian tech-utopia make-billionaires-rich nonsense”
We can’t please everyone and it is a fool’s errand to try.
One person’s “steven pinker style techno-liberalism, with a free speech absolutist stance and a vague unease about social justice activism” is another person’s “Ludite free speech blocking SJW”
If following principles does not clearly push EA one way or the other, also then so be it.
Fwiw, I think your view that a leftward shift in EA would increase popularity is probably Americocentric. I doubt it is true if you were to consider EA as a global movement rather than just a western one
My point was more that theres a larger audience for picking one side of the political spectrum than there is for awkwardly positioning yourself in the middle in a way that annoys both sides. I think this holds for other countries as well, but of course the political battles are different. If you wanted to appeal more to western europe you’d go left, to eastern europe you’d go right, to China you’d go some weird combination of left and right, etc.
Really, I’m making the same point as you: chasing popularity at the expense of principles is a fools errand.
I think there’s a difference between “people in EA tend to have X, Y, and Z views” and those views being actively promoted by major orgs (which is the most natural reading of the proposal to me). Also, although free speech absolutism may not be popular in toto, most points on the US political spectrum at least find some common ground with that stance (they will agree on the outcome for certain forms of controversial speech).
I also think it likely that EA will need significant cooperation from the political system on certain things, particularly involving x-risk, and that becoming strongly left-identified sharply increases the risk you’ll be summarily dismissed by a house of Congress, the White House, or non-US equivalents.
I don’t think “race science” has any place in EA spaces, by the way.
Agree with this. We should de-politicize issues, if anything. Take Climate Change for example. Heavily politicized. But EA is not left wing because 80k hours acknowledges the severity and reality of CC—it is simply very likely to be true. And if truth happens to be more frequent in left wing perspectives then so be it.
This is true, but to the extent that these changes would make EA look/act like already-existing actors, I think it is fair to consider (1) how effective the similiar actors are, and (2) the marginal benefit of having more muscle in or adjacent to the space those actors occupy.
Also, because I think a clear leftward drift would have significant costs, I also think identifying the drift and those costs is a fair critique. As you move closer to a political pole, the range of people who will want to engage with your movement is likely to dwindle. Most people don’t want to work in, or donate to, a movement that doesnt feel respecting toward them—which I think is a strong tendency of almost all political poles.
At present, I think you can be moderately conservative or at least centrist by US standards and find a role and a place where you feel like you fit in. I think giving that range up has significant costs.
I think a moderate leftward shift on certain issues would actually increase popularity. The current dominant politics of EA seems to be a kind of steven pinker style techno-liberalism, with a free speech absolutist stance and a vague unease about social justice activism. Whether or not you agree with this position, I think it’s popularity among the general public is fairly low, and a shift to mainstream liberal (or mainstream conservative) opinions would make EA more appealling overall. For example, a policy of banning all discussion of “race science” would in the long term probably bring in much more people than it deterred, because almost everybody finds discussing that topic unpleasant.
If your response to this is “wait, there are other principles at play that we need to take into consideration here, not just chasing what is popular”, then you understand the reasons why I don’t find ” these positions would make EA more left wing” to be a very strong argument against them. If following principles pushes EA one way or the other, then so be it.
Fwiw, I think your view that a leftward shift in EA would increase popularity is probably Americocentric. I doubt it is true if you were to consider EA as a global movement rather than just a western one.
Also, fwiw, I’ve lost track of how many people I’ve seen dismiss EA as “dumb left-wing social justice”. EAs also tend to think the consequence of saying something is what matters. So we tend to be disliked both by free speech absolutists and by people who will never concede that properly discussing some controversial topics might be more net positive than the harm caused by talking about them. Some also see EA as tech-phobic. Steven Pinker famously dismissed EA concerns about AI Alignment. If you spend time outside of EA in tech-optimism-liberal circles you see a clear divide. It isn’t culturally the same. Despite this, I think I’ve also lost count of how many people I’ve seen dismiss EA as ” right-leaning libertarian tech-utopia make-billionaires-rich nonsense”
We can’t please everyone and it is a fool’s errand to try.
One person’s “steven pinker style techno-liberalism, with a free speech absolutist stance and a vague unease about social justice activism” is another person’s “Ludite free speech blocking SJW”
If following principles does not clearly push EA one way or the other, also then so be it.
My point was more that theres a larger audience for picking one side of the political spectrum than there is for awkwardly positioning yourself in the middle in a way that annoys both sides. I think this holds for other countries as well, but of course the political battles are different. If you wanted to appeal more to western europe you’d go left, to eastern europe you’d go right, to China you’d go some weird combination of left and right, etc.
Really, I’m making the same point as you: chasing popularity at the expense of principles is a fools errand.
I think there’s a difference between “people in EA tend to have X, Y, and Z views” and those views being actively promoted by major orgs (which is the most natural reading of the proposal to me). Also, although free speech absolutism may not be popular in toto, most points on the US political spectrum at least find some common ground with that stance (they will agree on the outcome for certain forms of controversial speech).
I also think it likely that EA will need significant cooperation from the political system on certain things, particularly involving x-risk, and that becoming strongly left-identified sharply increases the risk you’ll be summarily dismissed by a house of Congress, the White House, or non-US equivalents.
I don’t think “race science” has any place in EA spaces, by the way.
Agree with this. We should de-politicize issues, if anything. Take Climate Change for example. Heavily politicized. But EA is not left wing because 80k hours acknowledges the severity and reality of CC—it is simply very likely to be true. And if truth happens to be more frequent in left wing perspectives then so be it.