a) Death & sickness are bad for the economy. It’s pretty uncontested that more people use malaria nets than when they are provided for free (can link research on this if necessary). When someone is sick, it’s time that they can’t spend in the labor force. When someone gets sick a lot as a child, it affects them so that they are a less productive worker in the future. When your child is sick, you have to spend time taking care of them that could have otherwise been hours you earned a wage, spent on goods, etc. So in that regard, this is probably an outweighing factor to a couple jobs.
b) Even if malaria nets don’t effect wages and productivity at all, the money that would have gone to the malaria net maker doesn’t just disappear, it’s simply spent somewhere else. So jobs don’t go away, they are just created in other areas.
So it’s not just weighing job creation vs. malaria prevention, it’s that malaria prevention probably helps job creation.
So jobs don’t go away, they are just created in other areas.
This isn’t really true. Yes, probably there is some job replacement so that the jobs don’t literally disappear 1-for-1. But there will probably be fewer jobs, and I don’t think it’s easy to say (without doing some research) whether it’s 0.1 or 0.5 or 0.9 fewer jobs for each malaria net maker that goes away.
Mostly agree, though it’s worth noting that the multiplier can also be greater than one if money gets shifted to an industry that creates more jobs per dollar than the malaria nets.
The question then is why don’t we, instead of ignoring what the people actually want, invest in companies which could create jobs for them (because that’s what they are asking for)? Why does effective altruism care so much about saving lives that it would rather many people live in abject dependence, where their only purpose in life is to have all of their problems solved by foreigners, than to have fewer people pull themselves up by their bootstraps and solve their problems themselves? If what we care about is actually giving jobs, why not promote charities which do create jobs and fight health problems at the same time? Why not build the capacity of local workers to tackle their own challenges? By promoting charities which care about number of people saved over actually getting those people out of poverty, EA only perpetuates the cycle that they claim to be fighting against. If you are really concerned about job creation, the charities promoted here are not the best. But if you only care about saving people and keeping them dependent so that the effective altruists of tomorrow can save them again, donate away.
I apologize for being harsh, but these interventions are hurting real people. I see it every day. And people who have absolutely no stake in it keep donating to these harmful organizations thinking that they are doing good, when in fact they are doing harm. Come to Africa, listen to the people. Ask them what they want. You will increase more happiness by giving them jobs to better their own health, than you will by keeping them dependent and keeping more alive.
a) But malaria really kills about as many people as the flu every year, but I doubt anyone would say that flu vaccines are the best way to improve the economy, or even that they have an appreciable effect. Everyone here considers malaria another version of the flu. Professionals don’t call in sick with the flu for a few days, they call in sick with Malaria, and most of them are fine. Do you think that any American politician would advocate closing down several factories in the Midwest (which are the sole means of support for towns there, if it would mean that slightly fewer people would get the flu? Not a chance. Politicians in democracies that are not flooded with aid actually listen to their people (at least more than politicians where I live do).
b) The problem is that, since countries like mine have absolutely no industry (because aid organizations like AMF run them all out of business) it is not spent in a way that every cent goes back to the local population. It is spent on imports, where certainly some money is going to the distributor, but most of the money is going overseas, away from the people that most need it. The jobs are created, in other countries. This might be great for the corporation that makes AMF’s nets, but it is horrible for the people on the ground.
Malaria prevention helps job creation about as much as having foreigners give out flu vaccines helps job creation at home. Sure you might prevent a couple of cases of the flu, but it is nothing compared to closing down a factory and destroying the livelihood of many people.
“have absolutely no industry (because aid organizations like AMF run them all out of business)”
This is not why they have no industry. Trade does not cost jobs overall, at most it relocates who does what between and within countries. I’d read a book like Why Nations Fail for a better explanation of why some countries struggle to develop complex industries (governance and economic institutions).
In any case, importing nets results in people manufacturing them using proper economies of scale in countries like Vietnam, Thailand, China and Tanzania (where AMF buys its nets), which is also valuable.
Closing yourself off to foreign inputs is no path to economic development.
Two thoughts, there’s a difference between trade, where the consumers get to choose what they are buying and aid, where they have no choice whatsoever. If you start, say an import business to provide people with a certain good that they can only get abroad, you are certainly providing jobs, and you are catering to the needs and wants of the people. Instead of having jobs producing the goods, people have jobs storing and selling them. Perhaps fewer jobs, but jobs nonetheless. I’m not talking about trade, I’m talking about aid. The difference is that aid is temporary, AMF goes in, employs a lot of people to help distribute nets, and then leaves them to cut costs. They don’t give the same long term employment that an import business or local factory might provide. I’m not arguing against trade, I’m arguing against unsustainable aid like AMF.
As for economic development, if we consent to the thesis that it is based on the strength of institutions, aid does not help those either. Aid does several things, it makes politicians beholden to foreign donors instead of the people, by tying conditions to money or goods to come into the country. This harms political institutions since the laws of the country are based not on what the people actually want, but on what foreigners think is good. This leads to laws that are on the books solely to appease international donors, but which are never enforced on the ground. Furthermore, and more appropriate to AMF, it leads to the perception of the people that it is the responsibility of foreign organizations to solve problems, not the government. This means that they do not hold their elected officials accountable, which inevitably weakens these institutions.
I’m not saying we should close ourselves off to foreign imports, which provide steady jobs, I’m saying we should stop giving money to organizations which donate goods and take away local jobs, of people who could either be working in a factory, or simply importing those same goods. If we supported these businesses instead, we could get similar outcomes without hurting the communities.
Want to add this to #1:
a) Death & sickness are bad for the economy. It’s pretty uncontested that more people use malaria nets than when they are provided for free (can link research on this if necessary). When someone is sick, it’s time that they can’t spend in the labor force. When someone gets sick a lot as a child, it affects them so that they are a less productive worker in the future. When your child is sick, you have to spend time taking care of them that could have otherwise been hours you earned a wage, spent on goods, etc. So in that regard, this is probably an outweighing factor to a couple jobs.
b) Even if malaria nets don’t effect wages and productivity at all, the money that would have gone to the malaria net maker doesn’t just disappear, it’s simply spent somewhere else. So jobs don’t go away, they are just created in other areas.
So it’s not just weighing job creation vs. malaria prevention, it’s that malaria prevention probably helps job creation.
This isn’t really true. Yes, probably there is some job replacement so that the jobs don’t literally disappear 1-for-1. But there will probably be fewer jobs, and I don’t think it’s easy to say (without doing some research) whether it’s 0.1 or 0.5 or 0.9 fewer jobs for each malaria net maker that goes away.
Mostly agree, though it’s worth noting that the multiplier can also be greater than one if money gets shifted to an industry that creates more jobs per dollar than the malaria nets.
The question then is why don’t we, instead of ignoring what the people actually want, invest in companies which could create jobs for them (because that’s what they are asking for)? Why does effective altruism care so much about saving lives that it would rather many people live in abject dependence, where their only purpose in life is to have all of their problems solved by foreigners, than to have fewer people pull themselves up by their bootstraps and solve their problems themselves? If what we care about is actually giving jobs, why not promote charities which do create jobs and fight health problems at the same time? Why not build the capacity of local workers to tackle their own challenges? By promoting charities which care about number of people saved over actually getting those people out of poverty, EA only perpetuates the cycle that they claim to be fighting against. If you are really concerned about job creation, the charities promoted here are not the best. But if you only care about saving people and keeping them dependent so that the effective altruists of tomorrow can save them again, donate away.
I apologize for being harsh, but these interventions are hurting real people. I see it every day. And people who have absolutely no stake in it keep donating to these harmful organizations thinking that they are doing good, when in fact they are doing harm. Come to Africa, listen to the people. Ask them what they want. You will increase more happiness by giving them jobs to better their own health, than you will by keeping them dependent and keeping more alive.
a) But malaria really kills about as many people as the flu every year, but I doubt anyone would say that flu vaccines are the best way to improve the economy, or even that they have an appreciable effect. Everyone here considers malaria another version of the flu. Professionals don’t call in sick with the flu for a few days, they call in sick with Malaria, and most of them are fine. Do you think that any American politician would advocate closing down several factories in the Midwest (which are the sole means of support for towns there, if it would mean that slightly fewer people would get the flu? Not a chance. Politicians in democracies that are not flooded with aid actually listen to their people (at least more than politicians where I live do).
b) The problem is that, since countries like mine have absolutely no industry (because aid organizations like AMF run them all out of business) it is not spent in a way that every cent goes back to the local population. It is spent on imports, where certainly some money is going to the distributor, but most of the money is going overseas, away from the people that most need it. The jobs are created, in other countries. This might be great for the corporation that makes AMF’s nets, but it is horrible for the people on the ground.
Malaria prevention helps job creation about as much as having foreigners give out flu vaccines helps job creation at home. Sure you might prevent a couple of cases of the flu, but it is nothing compared to closing down a factory and destroying the livelihood of many people.
“have absolutely no industry (because aid organizations like AMF run them all out of business)”
This is not why they have no industry. Trade does not cost jobs overall, at most it relocates who does what between and within countries. I’d read a book like Why Nations Fail for a better explanation of why some countries struggle to develop complex industries (governance and economic institutions).
In any case, importing nets results in people manufacturing them using proper economies of scale in countries like Vietnam, Thailand, China and Tanzania (where AMF buys its nets), which is also valuable.
Closing yourself off to foreign inputs is no path to economic development.
Two thoughts, there’s a difference between trade, where the consumers get to choose what they are buying and aid, where they have no choice whatsoever. If you start, say an import business to provide people with a certain good that they can only get abroad, you are certainly providing jobs, and you are catering to the needs and wants of the people. Instead of having jobs producing the goods, people have jobs storing and selling them. Perhaps fewer jobs, but jobs nonetheless. I’m not talking about trade, I’m talking about aid. The difference is that aid is temporary, AMF goes in, employs a lot of people to help distribute nets, and then leaves them to cut costs. They don’t give the same long term employment that an import business or local factory might provide. I’m not arguing against trade, I’m arguing against unsustainable aid like AMF.
As for economic development, if we consent to the thesis that it is based on the strength of institutions, aid does not help those either. Aid does several things, it makes politicians beholden to foreign donors instead of the people, by tying conditions to money or goods to come into the country. This harms political institutions since the laws of the country are based not on what the people actually want, but on what foreigners think is good. This leads to laws that are on the books solely to appease international donors, but which are never enforced on the ground. Furthermore, and more appropriate to AMF, it leads to the perception of the people that it is the responsibility of foreign organizations to solve problems, not the government. This means that they do not hold their elected officials accountable, which inevitably weakens these institutions.
I’m not saying we should close ourselves off to foreign imports, which provide steady jobs, I’m saying we should stop giving money to organizations which donate goods and take away local jobs, of people who could either be working in a factory, or simply importing those same goods. If we supported these businesses instead, we could get similar outcomes without hurting the communities.