I agree with much of your underlying frustration, Geoffrey, but I worry that explicitly anti-woke sentiment could encourage the perception that the woke are “not welcome here”.
So many people find and contribute to EA from woke/woke-adjacent circles like climate change activism, welfare capitalism, and animal welfare. Even if you and I disagree with their ideological views, they’re still trying to improve the world, the same way as you or I.
I hope that much the same way that EA is influenced by wokism, woke EAs are influenced by EA refine the ethics and epistemics of their ideology. I’d like to throw in a (perhaps naive) vote for not explicitly alienating woke EAs if at all possible.
Ariel—thanks for your calm & constructive comment. I take your point that many people in those movements such as animal welfare and climate change activism tend to be woke-adjacent. I also accept that everybody thinks they’re trying to improve the world, given their own values and beliefs.
It’s worth having a discussion about whether EA should be explicitly anti-woke, or woke-neutral, or pro-woke (which often includes pretending not to know what ‘woke’ means). However, there’s a variant of O’Sullivan’s Law that seem to operate in modern culture, such that any organization that is not explicitly anti-woke tends to become woke.
Hi Geoffrey, I commented earlier asking what you mean by woke, and would like to clarify that I’m not “pretending not to know what ‘woke’ means.” It’s a word that I only ever see employed derisively and I am truly not sure what it’s supposed to mean beyond “views that the speaker holds in contempt.” So if you are able to give a sense of what “woke” means to you I would appreciate it, as that would help me understand your viewpoint.
Thanks, but that doesn’t actually help me engage with the objections of those who are afraid of wokism (or SJW, or DEI) weakening the movement, because each of those terms can mean so many different things.
A sampling of ideas that seem like they could be included under the umbrella of “wokism” in an EA context:
“Catering at EA events should be vegan”
“EA spaces should be welcoming for trans people”
“EA would be stronger if EAs were less homogenous”
“Reports of sexual assault and harassment should be taken seriously”
“Racism, including so-called ‘scientific’ racism, is a scourge”
As is probably evident from my comment history, I do happen to agree with all of these assertions. But I would be interested in engaging respectfully with someone who didn’t. What I can’t do is meaningfully respond to the idea that wokism, undefined, is threatening EA.
(edited to add - if anyone disagree voting would be willing to tell me what they disagree with, I would appreciate it)
I think part of the difficulty here is that “wokism” seems to refer to a cluster of ideas and practices that seem to be a genuine cluster, but don’t have especially clear boundaries or a singular easy definition.
What I do notice is that none of the ideas you listed, at least at the level of abstraction at which you listed them, are things that anyone, woke or anti-woke or anywhere in between, will disagree with. But I’ll try to give some analysis of what I would understand to be woke in the general vicinity of these ideas. Note that I am not asserting any normative position myself, just trying to describe what I understand these words to mean.
I don’t think veganism really has much to do with wokism. Whatever you think about EA event catering, it just seems like an orthogonal issue.
I suspect everyone would prefer that EA spaces be welcoming of trans people, but there may be disagreement on what exactly that requires on a very concrete level, or how to trade it off against other values. Should we start meetings by having everyone go around and give their pronouns? Wokism might say yes, other people (including some trans people) might say no. Should we kick people out of EA spaces for using the “wrong” pronouns? Wokism might say yes, other might say no as that is a bad tradeoff against free speech and epistemic health.
I suspect everyone thinks reports of assault and harassment should be taken seriously. Does that mean that we believe all women? Wokism might say yes, others might so no. Does that mean that people accused should be confronted with the particular accusations against them, and allowed to present evidence in response? Wokism might say no, others might say yes, good epistemics requires that.
I’m honestly not sure what specifically you mean by “so-called ‘scientific’ racism” or “scourge”, and I’m not sure if that’s a road worth going down.
Again, I’m not asserting any position myself here, just trying to help clarify what I think people mean by “wokism”, in the hopes that the rest of you can have a productive conversation.
none of the ideas you listed, at least at the level of abstraction at which you listed them, are things that anyone, woke or anti-woke or anywhere in between, will disagree with
This is a tangent, but raising my hand as someone who does disagree that EA events should generally have only vegan food. I think having good vegan food available is very important, and think you can make a good case for excluding meat, but the more you constrain the menu the harder it is for people to find the food they need. This is especially a problem for longer or residential events, where the downsides of a limited diet compound and going out to get different food can be logistically challenging.
I’m not “pretending to not know what woke means”, I genuinely think it would be constructive for you to define what it is you mean by using it, and by explaining why you think it is a threat to EA.
Some things I think you could mean: -People who talk a lot about “positionality” -People who look at white men distrustfully and assume they have bad intentions -People who talk about diversity and inclusion and virtue signal about said things -People who are part of the “culture wars” in the United States
The problem is that, I genuinely do not know how you define it, and how you think this applies to EA or is some sort of threat to EA.
Another problem is that you seem to assume you can identify whether or not someone is “woke” without actually defining what that means or really knowing the person. I don’t think that’s fair. I also think you are doing what I notice people on twitter do, which is look at really superficial things like how someone talks or presents themselves online, and think you can categorize them as “woke” or “not-woke”. It’s just very polarizing. I actually think you and I agree on a lot more than you would assume but because I disagree with you using “woke” language you assume I am “pro-woke”.
You’re welcome! I agree that the discussion is worth having, and won’t pretend to know the right answer. Your point that the de-facto choice may be between anti-woke and (eventually) pro-woke is legitimate.
One consideration which we might be underestimating (I’m not just saying this; I mean it :P) is the impact of ways EA could influence woke ideology:
Expose woke people to prioritarianism, which incorporates their perception of the effects of oppression between groups of people, while often resulting in de-facto EA conclusions.
Expose woke people to the possible moral significance of disenfranchised groups which are typically ignored in the public eye, such as future people and wild animals.
Encourage woke people to quantify their perceptions of how oppressed different groups are, and how to make tradeoffs between interventions which help different groups. This also often leads to EA conclusions. For example, under most plausible assumptions of the sentience of farmed animals, it seems likely that a given intervention in farmed animal welfare will reduce more suffering than a given anti-racist intervention.
Strong agree! The basic framework of EA, using utilitarian EV calculus to have more impact, can be adopted by folks on the left or right. People who are more into social justice and climate change can learn to have better feedback mechanisms to increase impact.
At the same time, conservative religious groups that do a ton of charity could also be led to using more effective interventions. I don’t think the EA framework needs to be politicized.
I agree with much of your underlying frustration, Geoffrey, but I worry that explicitly anti-woke sentiment could encourage the perception that the woke are “not welcome here”.
So many people find and contribute to EA from woke/woke-adjacent circles like climate change activism, welfare capitalism, and animal welfare. Even if you and I disagree with their ideological views, they’re still trying to improve the world, the same way as you or I.
I hope that much the same way that EA is influenced by wokism, woke EAs are influenced by EA refine the ethics and epistemics of their ideology. I’d like to throw in a (perhaps naive) vote for not explicitly alienating woke EAs if at all possible.
Ariel—thanks for your calm & constructive comment. I take your point that many people in those movements such as animal welfare and climate change activism tend to be woke-adjacent. I also accept that everybody thinks they’re trying to improve the world, given their own values and beliefs.
It’s worth having a discussion about whether EA should be explicitly anti-woke, or woke-neutral, or pro-woke (which often includes pretending not to know what ‘woke’ means). However, there’s a variant of O’Sullivan’s Law that seem to operate in modern culture, such that any organization that is not explicitly anti-woke tends to become woke.
Hi Geoffrey, I commented earlier asking what you mean by woke, and would like to clarify that I’m not “pretending not to know what ‘woke’ means.” It’s a word that I only ever see employed derisively and I am truly not sure what it’s supposed to mean beyond “views that the speaker holds in contempt.” So if you are able to give a sense of what “woke” means to you I would appreciate it, as that would help me understand your viewpoint.
And what specific, significant “woke” pressures are being put on EA?
(I would categorize some of the ConcernedEA platform as “woke,” but I don’t get the sense that those parts of the platform are getting much support.)
synonyms might be “SJW” or “DEI”.
Thanks, but that doesn’t actually help me engage with the objections of those who are afraid of wokism (or SJW, or DEI) weakening the movement, because each of those terms can mean so many different things.
A sampling of ideas that seem like they could be included under the umbrella of “wokism” in an EA context:
“Catering at EA events should be vegan”
“EA spaces should be welcoming for trans people”
“EA would be stronger if EAs were less homogenous”
“Reports of sexual assault and harassment should be taken seriously”
“Racism, including so-called ‘scientific’ racism, is a scourge”
As is probably evident from my comment history, I do happen to agree with all of these assertions. But I would be interested in engaging respectfully with someone who didn’t. What I can’t do is meaningfully respond to the idea that wokism, undefined, is threatening EA.
(edited to add - if anyone disagree voting would be willing to tell me what they disagree with, I would appreciate it)
I think part of the difficulty here is that “wokism” seems to refer to a cluster of ideas and practices that seem to be a genuine cluster, but don’t have especially clear boundaries or a singular easy definition.
What I do notice is that none of the ideas you listed, at least at the level of abstraction at which you listed them, are things that anyone, woke or anti-woke or anywhere in between, will disagree with. But I’ll try to give some analysis of what I would understand to be woke in the general vicinity of these ideas. Note that I am not asserting any normative position myself, just trying to describe what I understand these words to mean.
I don’t think veganism really has much to do with wokism. Whatever you think about EA event catering, it just seems like an orthogonal issue.
I suspect everyone would prefer that EA spaces be welcoming of trans people, but there may be disagreement on what exactly that requires on a very concrete level, or how to trade it off against other values. Should we start meetings by having everyone go around and give their pronouns? Wokism might say yes, other people (including some trans people) might say no. Should we kick people out of EA spaces for using the “wrong” pronouns? Wokism might say yes, other might say no as that is a bad tradeoff against free speech and epistemic health.
I suspect everyone thinks reports of assault and harassment should be taken seriously. Does that mean that we believe all women? Wokism might say yes, others might so no. Does that mean that people accused should be confronted with the particular accusations against them, and allowed to present evidence in response? Wokism might say no, others might say yes, good epistemics requires that.
I’m honestly not sure what specifically you mean by “so-called ‘scientific’ racism” or “scourge”, and I’m not sure if that’s a road worth going down.
Again, I’m not asserting any position myself here, just trying to help clarify what I think people mean by “wokism”, in the hopes that the rest of you can have a productive conversation.
This is a tangent, but raising my hand as someone who does disagree that EA events should generally have only vegan food. I think having good vegan food available is very important, and think you can make a good case for excluding meat, but the more you constrain the menu the harder it is for people to find the food they need. This is especially a problem for longer or residential events, where the downsides of a limited diet compound and going out to get different food can be logistically challenging.
I agree on food. I was careless with my qualifications, sorry about that.
I’m not “pretending to not know what woke means”, I genuinely think it would be constructive for you to define what it is you mean by using it, and by explaining why you think it is a threat to EA.
Some things I think you could mean:
-People who talk a lot about “positionality”
-People who look at white men distrustfully and assume they have bad intentions
-People who talk about diversity and inclusion and virtue signal about said things
-People who are part of the “culture wars” in the United States
The problem is that, I genuinely do not know how you define it, and how you think this applies to EA or is some sort of threat to EA.
Another problem is that you seem to assume you can identify whether or not someone is “woke” without actually defining what that means or really knowing the person. I don’t think that’s fair. I also think you are doing what I notice people on twitter do, which is look at really superficial things like how someone talks or presents themselves online, and think you can categorize them as “woke” or “not-woke”. It’s just very polarizing. I actually think you and I agree on a lot more than you would assume but because I disagree with you using “woke” language you assume I am “pro-woke”.
You’re welcome! I agree that the discussion is worth having, and won’t pretend to know the right answer. Your point that the de-facto choice may be between anti-woke and (eventually) pro-woke is legitimate.
One consideration which we might be underestimating (I’m not just saying this; I mean it :P) is the impact of ways EA could influence woke ideology:
Expose woke people to prioritarianism, which incorporates their perception of the effects of oppression between groups of people, while often resulting in de-facto EA conclusions.
Expose woke people to the possible moral significance of disenfranchised groups which are typically ignored in the public eye, such as future people and wild animals.
Encourage woke people to quantify their perceptions of how oppressed different groups are, and how to make tradeoffs between interventions which help different groups. This also often leads to EA conclusions. For example, under most plausible assumptions of the sentience of farmed animals, it seems likely that a given intervention in farmed animal welfare will reduce more suffering than a given anti-racist intervention.
Strong agree! The basic framework of EA, using utilitarian EV calculus to have more impact, can be adopted by folks on the left or right. People who are more into social justice and climate change can learn to have better feedback mechanisms to increase impact.
At the same time, conservative religious groups that do a ton of charity could also be led to using more effective interventions. I don’t think the EA framework needs to be politicized.