I don’t understand this. Do you suggest that all companies should be trying to fulfill (all) the needs of some collective. It is very useful for companies to specialize.
I expect all benevolent companies to fulfil the needs of others with their profits (if they are not reinvesting them in expansion). For that is the definition of benevolence right? People have an ethos of benevolence insofar as they pursue the interests of others.
There are two aspects of ownership of the means of production
Control over the operations
Control of the profits
I would expect that a benevolent person/company would give away the control of the profit to an external entity. Why? Comparative advantage, it is unlikely that the person who specialises in control over operations of a company will be better than some group that specializes in getting the maximum charitable return (as long as the external groups is also benevolent). So you’d expect all the profits to go to something like open phil, directly so as to reduce costs from friction.
So who owns the company in this case? The people that controls operations or the group that controls profits?
I can’t see a benevolent person arguing for needing private control over the profits (this might not mean public control, it might mean charitable control).
So I was trying to break down the concept of ownership some more and arguing that in a benevolent world private ownership might only mean keeping control over operations.
We don’t live in a world of complete benevolence, so it is almost irrelevant. But it struck me as interesting as thought about how benevolence and capitalism would interact and look a lot different.
I think I have now a better understanding of what you meant.
I think there are at least three optimization problems here: 1) what to produce? (investment decision) 2) how to produce? (organization of operations) and 3) how to use the returns , for EA-minded, how to donate?
Company traditionally optimizes 2) and 1) in a more restricted manner (within their field of business or local opportunities)
I think there might be some problems with a hypothetical “benevolent” company that also commits to donate all the profits to an charity or portfolio of charities. Firstly, it would decrease the possible investor base because only strictly altruistic investors would be interested and thus it would not likely able to raise as much funding as a “non-benevolent” company (altruistic investors are also interested in “non-benevolent” companies because they can freely donate any profits they make). Secondly, there is disagreement among altruists of how to best donate. Thus, if profits are given to investors, each altruist can choose personally how to donate. So even altruistic investors might be hesitant to invest in a “benevolent” company I outlined here.
“So I was trying to break down the concept of ownership some more and arguing that in a benevolent world private ownership might only mean keeping control over operations.”
There is still disagreement about how to best donate (to do most good) among individuals which gives support to the argument that profits should be paid out even among altruistic investor base
There is still disagreement about how to best donate (to do most good) among individuals which gives support to the argument that profits should be paid out even among altruistic investor base
True, but to if I put myself in the perfect altruist company owner shoes I would really want to delegate the allocation of the my charitable giving, because I am too busy running my company to have much good information about who to donate to.
If I come happen to come in to some information about what good charitable giving is, I should be able to take the information to whoever I have delegated it too and they should incorporate it (being altruists wanting to do the most good as well).
It seems only when you distrust other agents, either morally, or their ability to update on information should you allocate it yourself.
“True, but to if I put myself in the perfect altruist company owner shoes I would really want to delegate the allocation of the my charitable giving, because I am too busy running my company to have much good information about who to donate to.”
I agree with that usually it is not efficient for same person to take care and optimize 1) (for-profit private) company operations 2) allocation of charitable giving. So person doing 1) would do well to delegate 2) to someone who she trusts.
In any case, I reiterate my previous point: I don’t think having “benevolent” companies would be something I support (benevolent in the sense that the company commits to donate all profits) because: Firstly, it would decrease the possible investor base because only strictly altruistic investors would be interested and thus it would not likely able to raise as much funding as a “non-benevolent” company (altruistic investors are also interested in “non-benevolent” companies because they can freely donate any profits they make). Secondly, there is disagreement among altruists of how to best donate. Thus, if profits are given to investors, each altruist can choose personally how to donate. So even altruistic investors might be hesitant to invest in a “benevolent” company I outlined here.
As far as I am tell, it’s best to have a for-profit company optimizing production and maximizing profits which are distributed to investors some of which can be efficient altruists who in turn donate them as they see fit. Charitable givers can delegate their giving to a fund of charities of which I think OpenPhil is an example of.
I expect all benevolent companies to fulfil the needs of others with their profits (if they are not reinvesting them in expansion). For that is the definition of benevolence right? People have an ethos of benevolence insofar as they pursue the interests of others.
There are two aspects of ownership of the means of production
Control over the operations
Control of the profits
I would expect that a benevolent person/company would give away the control of the profit to an external entity. Why? Comparative advantage, it is unlikely that the person who specialises in control over operations of a company will be better than some group that specializes in getting the maximum charitable return (as long as the external groups is also benevolent). So you’d expect all the profits to go to something like open phil, directly so as to reduce costs from friction.
So who owns the company in this case? The people that controls operations or the group that controls profits?
I can’t see a benevolent person arguing for needing private control over the profits (this might not mean public control, it might mean charitable control).
So I was trying to break down the concept of ownership some more and arguing that in a benevolent world private ownership might only mean keeping control over operations.
We don’t live in a world of complete benevolence, so it is almost irrelevant. But it struck me as interesting as thought about how benevolence and capitalism would interact and look a lot different.
I think I have now a better understanding of what you meant.
I think there are at least three optimization problems here: 1) what to produce? (investment decision) 2) how to produce? (organization of operations) and 3) how to use the returns , for EA-minded, how to donate?
Company traditionally optimizes 2) and 1) in a more restricted manner (within their field of business or local opportunities)
I think there might be some problems with a hypothetical “benevolent” company that also commits to donate all the profits to an charity or portfolio of charities. Firstly, it would decrease the possible investor base because only strictly altruistic investors would be interested and thus it would not likely able to raise as much funding as a “non-benevolent” company (altruistic investors are also interested in “non-benevolent” companies because they can freely donate any profits they make). Secondly, there is disagreement among altruists of how to best donate. Thus, if profits are given to investors, each altruist can choose personally how to donate. So even altruistic investors might be hesitant to invest in a “benevolent” company I outlined here.
“So I was trying to break down the concept of ownership some more and arguing that in a benevolent world private ownership might only mean keeping control over operations.”
True, but to if I put myself in the perfect altruist company owner shoes I would really want to delegate the allocation of the my charitable giving, because I am too busy running my company to have much good information about who to donate to.
If I come happen to come in to some information about what good charitable giving is, I should be able to take the information to whoever I have delegated it too and they should incorporate it (being altruists wanting to do the most good as well).
It seems only when you distrust other agents, either morally, or their ability to update on information should you allocate it yourself.
Does that explain my intuitions?
Hi! Apologies for response delay.
“True, but to if I put myself in the perfect altruist company owner shoes I would really want to delegate the allocation of the my charitable giving, because I am too busy running my company to have much good information about who to donate to.”
I agree with that usually it is not efficient for same person to take care and optimize 1) (for-profit private) company operations 2) allocation of charitable giving. So person doing 1) would do well to delegate 2) to someone who she trusts.
In any case, I reiterate my previous point: I don’t think having “benevolent” companies would be something I support (benevolent in the sense that the company commits to donate all profits) because: Firstly, it would decrease the possible investor base because only strictly altruistic investors would be interested and thus it would not likely able to raise as much funding as a “non-benevolent” company (altruistic investors are also interested in “non-benevolent” companies because they can freely donate any profits they make). Secondly, there is disagreement among altruists of how to best donate. Thus, if profits are given to investors, each altruist can choose personally how to donate. So even altruistic investors might be hesitant to invest in a “benevolent” company I outlined here.
As far as I am tell, it’s best to have a for-profit company optimizing production and maximizing profits which are distributed to investors some of which can be efficient altruists who in turn donate them as they see fit. Charitable givers can delegate their giving to a fund of charities of which I think OpenPhil is an example of.