(Disclosure about step 2: I had seen the list of candidate venues, and actually visited one other place on the list. The process was in my view competent and sensible, for example in the aspect it involved talking with potential users of the venue)
Was there no less luxurious option available?
In previous discussion, Geoffrey Miller mentioned the benefits of a luxurious venue. In my opinion, the benefits of a non-luxurious venue equal or outweigh those of a luxurious venue—for example, as a method to deter grifters. The fact that a luxurious venue was chosen leaves me concerned that the people involved were falling prey to standard self-serving biases.
Another point: People mentioned that the venue could be resold. But I suspect that the market for less luxurious properties is more liquid, and a luxurious venue has a greater risk of finding no buyer at the original purchase price. Additionally, a more expensive venue means the organization’s assets are less diversified.
If someone finds it much easier and more natural to think of reasons in favor of buying their organization a luxurious venue, as opposed to reasons against, I would guess that is probably a result of self-serving bias. So a quick check for self-serving bias would be to recall whether the considerations I mentioned came up during the purchase decision process.
How much extra effort do you think those responsible should have gone to to find a non-luxurious venue, if the luxurious-looking one seemed better along most practical axes (e.g. size, location)?
Let’s see… Wikipedia says Wytham Abbey is 5 km away from Oxford. I feel fairly comfortable claiming that if a 50% cheaper and 50% less luxurious venue of identical or greater size was available within 30 km from Oxford, it should’ve been chosen.
Additional 25km seems very inconvenient if Oxford proximity is important and depending on public transport. Your financial tradeoff still might make sense, I dunno . At 25km though they might as well optimize along other axes like different counties or countries. That’s 12 miles… 10-20 minute drive depending? They could hire a full-time driver (with some temp drivers for events?) to create a world-class drive? I’m getting a bit more convinced. But if anything I would argue for getting a place that’s even more amenitied but way cheaper real estate plus amazing transport. Proximity is just a really important variable for these decisionmakers, though.
I think people are underestimating how much the decision was made out of lazy convenience. Most of the bougie vibes are already there just because they’re at Oxford to begin with vs some other place. With that in mind, one might ask, “why don’t we move the EA hubs from Berkeley and Oxford to a village in India”, which while sounding absurd to some I would be happy to consider the move, it being a question exemplifying a more extreme version of anti-bougieness (anti-aristocracism?) logic. If people aren’t willing to move from first-world countries, that’s also relatively kinda privileged and lazy (in a way that is obviously understandable and doesn’t translate exactly to the venue tradeoff situation, to be clear).
That’s 12 miles… 10-20 minute drive depending? They could hire a full-time driver (with some temp drivers for events?) to create a world-class drive?
Yep, could arrange carpooling for 1-on-1s
With that in mind, one might ask, “why don’t we move the EA hubs from Berkeley and Oxford to a village in India”, which while sounding absurd to some I would be happy to consider the move
BTW, I think the EA decisionmakers involved with Wytham Abbey are basically OK people, who most likely just made a very human mistake here.
Because I have faith in the decisionmakers involved, I’m going to suggest an exercise: leave a line of retreat, take out a piece of paper, and write out a plan for what they can do next, in a hypothetical world where they knew for a fact that this choice of venue was a result of their own self-serving bias.
I think if they go through with this exercise, they will realize that their options in this hypothetical are actually quite good—e.g. offering a public apology and selling the venue would probably result in a very good outcome for multiple reasons. And once they’ve internalized that, it will be easier to think clearly about whether the hypothetical is, in fact, true.
In previous discussion, Geoffrey Miller mentioned the benefits of a luxurious venue. In my opinion, the benefits of a non-luxurious venue equal or outweigh those of a luxurious venue—for example, as a method to deter grifters.
It’s notoriously hard to place a value on aesthetics, which is one problem here: it’s a disagreement over what that value should be. You seem to be placing that value near-zero?
A much smaller example and anecdote springs to my mind, from college. For logistical reasons, two adjacent dorms were administratively treated as one staff, but the buildings weren’t very similar. One had been built in the late 1800s, beautiful brick building, nice hallways, etc etc. The other was built as an Army training barracks in the… 1930s, as I recall. It was supposed to be temporary but then sold to the university, renovated a couple times, and somehow (barely) still stood 80 years later. Want to take a guess which one students spent more time in, which one had the nice lounges always full, and which one students avoided as much as they could?
I’ve sort of come around on Wytham after my initial, reflexive revulsion. I’m still baffled that (supposedly) smart people can make what is to me such an obvious disaster in communication,but I do think aesthetics are an underrated (and perhaps deliberately ignored) aspect of a healthy movement that EA might finally be coming around on a bit. A non-luxurious venue could, in theory, be cheaper and maybe because it’s plain as dry toast everyone focuses on work instead- or perhaps no one wants to go there because it’s the aesthetic equivalent of an overgrown cubicle.
A much smaller example and anecdote springs to my mind, from college. For logistical reasons, two adjacent dorms were administratively treated as one staff, but the buildings weren’t very similar. One had been built in the late 1800s, beautiful brick building, nice hallways, etc etc. The other was built as an Army training barracks in the… 1930s, as I recall. It was supposed to be temporary but then sold to the university, renovated a couple times, and somehow (barely) still stood 80 years later. Want to take a guess which one students spent more time in, which one had the nice lounges always full, and which one students avoided as much as they could?
There’s actually a famous story about a building at MIT, “Building 20”, a building similar to your training barracks which was known for generating breakthroughs in part due to its freewheeling nature.
It’s not that I think aesthetics have zero value. It’s that I think the low-budget aesthetic is superior.
It’s that I think the low-budget aesthetic is superior.
Despite, or because? Culture has an immense effect, and MIT is pulling from a very different crowd than the state school I’m referring to. Sometimes, as with Building 20, the ramshackle nature of the building gives room for experiments not allowed elsewhere; other times, like the crumbling edifice next door to my dorm, it’s just depressing, because MIT geniuses didn’t go there. The kind of EA activities presumably planned for Wytham aren’t going to be drilling through walls to run wire for some quirky experiment.
And they replaced Building 20 with a Gehry eyesore. Sad!
MIT has had lots of buildings, but Building 20 is probably the most famous. Building 20 suggests that if you hold the “MIT crowd” factor constant, the low-budget aesthetic wins.
The kind of EA activities presumably planned for Wytham aren’t going to be drilling through walls to run wire for some quirky experiment.
I suspect that a place like Wytham will have the opposite effect of Building 20, making attendees feel stuffy and self-important, and that is harmful.
I believe that the role of Building 20 as a incubator is really the right word, because people got together and shared ideas and words without really worrying about who you were or where you came from. And I think that’s the secret.
My basis for the fame claim was (a) as someone outside MIT, it was the MIT building I was most familiar with and (b) a Google search for famous buildings at MIT had Building 20 coming up more as a dedicated search result than any other building.
It could be that Building 20 was not famous before the nostalgia burst. But I think the nostalgia burst shows that Building 20′s fame is causally downstream of it being an innovation hothouse. How many other decommissioned university buildings receive a nostalgia burst of similar magnitude & character?
My headcanon was that part of the purpose of Wytham was to appeal to Important People people who already feel stuffy and important, who wouldn’t go to a cubicle venue.
Well, as an attempt to appeal to Important People, Wytham seems like a clear failure, given the public relations fallout.
Also, I think credibility with Important People is enhanced if you can say “We are renting a fancy venue for this particular event, but in general we work in low-budget accommodations because we want to do as much good as we can with our money”.
Was there no less luxurious option available?
In previous discussion, Geoffrey Miller mentioned the benefits of a luxurious venue. In my opinion, the benefits of a non-luxurious venue equal or outweigh those of a luxurious venue—for example, as a method to deter grifters. The fact that a luxurious venue was chosen leaves me concerned that the people involved were falling prey to standard self-serving biases.
Another point: People mentioned that the venue could be resold. But I suspect that the market for less luxurious properties is more liquid, and a luxurious venue has a greater risk of finding no buyer at the original purchase price. Additionally, a more expensive venue means the organization’s assets are less diversified.
If someone finds it much easier and more natural to think of reasons in favor of buying their organization a luxurious venue, as opposed to reasons against, I would guess that is probably a result of self-serving bias. So a quick check for self-serving bias would be to recall whether the considerations I mentioned came up during the purchase decision process.
How much extra effort do you think those responsible should have gone to to find a non-luxurious venue, if the luxurious-looking one seemed better along most practical axes (e.g. size, location)?
Let’s see… Wikipedia says Wytham Abbey is 5 km away from Oxford. I feel fairly comfortable claiming that if a 50% cheaper and 50% less luxurious venue of identical or greater size was available within 30 km from Oxford, it should’ve been chosen.
Additional 25km seems very inconvenient if Oxford proximity is important and depending on public transport. Your financial tradeoff still might make sense, I dunno . At 25km though they might as well optimize along other axes like different counties or countries. That’s 12 miles… 10-20 minute drive depending? They could hire a full-time driver (with some temp drivers for events?) to create a world-class drive? I’m getting a bit more convinced. But if anything I would argue for getting a place that’s even more amenitied but way cheaper real estate plus amazing transport. Proximity is just a really important variable for these decisionmakers, though.
I think people are underestimating how much the decision was made out of lazy convenience. Most of the bougie vibes are already there just because they’re at Oxford to begin with vs some other place. With that in mind, one might ask, “why don’t we move the EA hubs from Berkeley and Oxford to a village in India”, which while sounding absurd to some I would be happy to consider the move, it being a question exemplifying a more extreme version of anti-bougieness (anti-aristocracism?) logic. If people aren’t willing to move from first-world countries, that’s also relatively kinda privileged and lazy (in a way that is obviously understandable and doesn’t translate exactly to the venue tradeoff situation, to be clear).
Yep, could arrange carpooling for 1-on-1s
Yep, blog post: https://80000hours.org/2014/09/should-you-move-to-thailand/
Moving to India or Thailand introduces a lot of additional considerations beyond just downgrading from one of the loveliest houses in England, though.
BTW, I think the EA decisionmakers involved with Wytham Abbey are basically OK people, who most likely just made a very human mistake here.
Because I have faith in the decisionmakers involved, I’m going to suggest an exercise: leave a line of retreat, take out a piece of paper, and write out a plan for what they can do next, in a hypothetical world where they knew for a fact that this choice of venue was a result of their own self-serving bias.
I think if they go through with this exercise, they will realize that their options in this hypothetical are actually quite good—e.g. offering a public apology and selling the venue would probably result in a very good outcome for multiple reasons. And once they’ve internalized that, it will be easier to think clearly about whether the hypothetical is, in fact, true.
It’s notoriously hard to place a value on aesthetics, which is one problem here: it’s a disagreement over what that value should be. You seem to be placing that value near-zero?
A much smaller example and anecdote springs to my mind, from college. For logistical reasons, two adjacent dorms were administratively treated as one staff, but the buildings weren’t very similar. One had been built in the late 1800s, beautiful brick building, nice hallways, etc etc. The other was built as an Army training barracks in the… 1930s, as I recall. It was supposed to be temporary but then sold to the university, renovated a couple times, and somehow (barely) still stood 80 years later. Want to take a guess which one students spent more time in, which one had the nice lounges always full, and which one students avoided as much as they could?
I’ve sort of come around on Wytham after my initial, reflexive revulsion. I’m still baffled that (supposedly) smart people can make what is to me such an obvious disaster in communication,but I do think aesthetics are an underrated (and perhaps deliberately ignored) aspect of a healthy movement that EA might finally be coming around on a bit. A non-luxurious venue could, in theory, be cheaper and maybe because it’s plain as dry toast everyone focuses on work instead- or perhaps no one wants to go there because it’s the aesthetic equivalent of an overgrown cubicle.
There’s actually a famous story about a building at MIT, “Building 20”, a building similar to your training barracks which was known for generating breakthroughs in part due to its freewheeling nature.
It’s not that I think aesthetics have zero value. It’s that I think the low-budget aesthetic is superior.
Despite, or because? Culture has an immense effect, and MIT is pulling from a very different crowd than the state school I’m referring to. Sometimes, as with Building 20, the ramshackle nature of the building gives room for experiments not allowed elsewhere; other times, like the crumbling edifice next door to my dorm, it’s just depressing, because MIT geniuses didn’t go there. The kind of EA activities presumably planned for Wytham aren’t going to be drilling through walls to run wire for some quirky experiment.
And they replaced Building 20 with a Gehry eyesore. Sad!
MIT has had lots of buildings, but Building 20 is probably the most famous. Building 20 suggests that if you hold the “MIT crowd” factor constant, the low-budget aesthetic wins.
I suspect that a place like Wytham will have the opposite effect of Building 20, making attendees feel stuffy and self-important, and that is harmful.
https://infinite.mit.edu/video/mits-building-20-magical-incubator
Was it the most famous before the nostalgia burst around its decommissioning?
I’m also not convinced it’s the most famous today. Above it I’d put at least:
The dome / Infinite Corridor
Green Building
Stata (mostly for being ugly)
My basis for the fame claim was (a) as someone outside MIT, it was the MIT building I was most familiar with and (b) a Google search for famous buildings at MIT had Building 20 coming up more as a dedicated search result than any other building.
It could be that Building 20 was not famous before the nostalgia burst. But I think the nostalgia burst shows that Building 20′s fame is causally downstream of it being an innovation hothouse. How many other decommissioned university buildings receive a nostalgia burst of similar magnitude & character?
My headcanon was that part of the purpose of Wytham was to appeal to Important People people who already feel stuffy and important, who wouldn’t go to a cubicle venue.
Well, as an attempt to appeal to Important People, Wytham seems like a clear failure, given the public relations fallout.
Also, I think credibility with Important People is enhanced if you can say “We are renting a fancy venue for this particular event, but in general we work in low-budget accommodations because we want to do as much good as we can with our money”.