Also, for the record, I find talking to Michael pretty helpful from time to time and wouldn’t judge someone else for doing that. I do think it’s not a good idea currently to put him into positions of power for various reasons, and like him having some distance from the broader community, but he is pretty smart and I learned a lot from him and some of his surrounding friend group.
Are you aware of the various allegations about his behavior? Is there a level of harm that you think merits rejecting someone entirely, rather than just from the broader community?
Is there a level of harm that you think merits rejecting someone entirely, rather than just from the broader community?
Feels quite extreme to me. Like, I would still be interested in talking to SBF for example, even though I think he deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison, since he also seems clearly extremely smart and might totally see things that I fail to see. I think Sam is the kind of person I am probably most hesitant to engage with though, since he is very charismatic and I would be slightly worried about my own sanity when engaging with him, though I can still definitely imagine situations where I would talk to him.
In-general I am not a huge fan of total punishment. I think even very bad people deserve to have some basic support and friends, as long as we actually really take seriously the obligation to limit the harm they can cause other people (I am also not categorically opposed to retribution as a component of a justice system, I just think isolation is a particularly bad dimension of punishment for various reasons).
For Michael, I think in my mind he has crossed many lines that make me really not want him to be part of the EA or Rationality community, and currently feel quite strongly about that.
What do you mean by rejecting someone entirely, and why does it entail not talking to them when you’d find this helpful?
Is this about
punishment through the psychological effects of social isolation?
punishment through some other effect of social isolation?
concern about being manipulated?
a “good guy” talking to a “bad guy” may be helpful, but a “bad guy” talking to another “bad guy” lets them coordinate to do bad things, therefore we apply social pressure to prevent anyone from talking to someone we’ve identified as a “bad guy”?
Are you aware of the various allegations about his behavior? Is there a level of harm that you think merits rejecting someone entirely, rather than just from the broader community?
Feels quite extreme to me. Like, I would still be interested in talking to SBF for example, even though I think he deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison, since he also seems clearly extremely smart and might totally see things that I fail to see. I think Sam is the kind of person I am probably most hesitant to engage with though, since he is very charismatic and I would be slightly worried about my own sanity when engaging with him, though I can still definitely imagine situations where I would talk to him.
In-general I am not a huge fan of total punishment. I think even very bad people deserve to have some basic support and friends, as long as we actually really take seriously the obligation to limit the harm they can cause other people (I am also not categorically opposed to retribution as a component of a justice system, I just think isolation is a particularly bad dimension of punishment for various reasons).
For Michael, I think in my mind he has crossed many lines that make me really not want him to be part of the EA or Rationality community, and currently feel quite strongly about that.
What do you mean by rejecting someone entirely, and why does it entail not talking to them when you’d find this helpful? Is this about
punishment through the psychological effects of social isolation?
punishment through some other effect of social isolation?
concern about being manipulated?
a “good guy” talking to a “bad guy” may be helpful, but a “bad guy” talking to another “bad guy” lets them coordinate to do bad things, therefore we apply social pressure to prevent anyone from talking to someone we’ve identified as a “bad guy”?
some other consideration / model I’m missing?