I don’t think stories like this are lost on devoted EAs. But I think that many of us have heard of them many times before and you are going to see less and less handwringing the more the same stories get posted as proof of worse and worse systemic problems. For example I personally was outspoken about the Brent Dill case mentioned above back in 2018, at the time, even though I was new in the community. You could say I was incensed. I even had a meeting with the leader of CFAR at the time (which actually was good of them tbh). Anyway, witnessing that whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth and I definitely kept caring enough that I steered clear of the rationality community (not EA community, they are different!) for years. But as shocked as I was when that came out (as many were), that doesn’t mean I think that it is right to bring that incident up for the rest of time, (if 5 years later is fine, why not 8? Why not 10 years later?), as proof that EA or even the rationality community has a certain problem today.
Like yes, for sure, there was a problem there. For sure there are problems in little bubbles elsewhere, well I’d bet so anyway, because that’s just life right now until society becomes a bit “better” about women. But like, the EA community is huge and diverse and many of us who care about this are frankly tired and are starting to not even be sure that we want to feed a narrative that seems to run away with itself into false, generalized directions? Even if we would like to talk about it...? A lot of us who care are starting to learn that it seems like there isn’t a way to talk about this that doesn’t lead to people hijacking the conversation to shame all EAs, including those of us who care..? And like, it’s totally reasonable if those us who care don’t want to play into generalization of ourselves or the movement we care about, a movement which contains our friends whom we also know don’t deserve to be generalized in this way?
In general I think most EAs are totally cool with people making reports etc, I’d certainly encourage it. 100%. I’ve done so myself multiple times over the 5 years I’ve been in EA, whenever there was something that happened at an actual EA or rat space. I think it is important that things be brought to attention and logged and tracked somehow, and retributive action be taken if necessary. I just wish in these articles and discussions that there were timestamps and more details attached and such so we knew what we actually had to be worried about? Once you look at the timestamps and other details in relation to the hugeness of the EA community you can’t help but notice how much it looks like either cherrypicking OR beating a dead horse and frankly a little sideeyeing of and flatout ignoring journalists (not the women’s primary reports themselves though!) is starting to look very, very fair. For EAs who care enough to want details and stuff, there just isn’t a lot to say especially if you have heard the vague story before?
There are plenty of EAs who want any problems handled, but who also aren’t going to voluntarily put on a badge of shame. But like, some people, possibly you are one of them, seem to want the whole community to put on a badge of shame? It’s like… if people don’t see enough handwringing they think EAs as a group don’t care about women? But EA is 1⁄3 women? Anyway, (constant) shows of handwringing (like again and again in response to stories you have already heard) are not actually what you should care about? You should care about hard numbers and detailed incident reports and what is being done? People making their care evident to you and other lurkers is simply not going to be the priority? Like sorry you can’t see that many of us in EA give a damn, but I think you must not be looking and it isn’t our priority to shove our care in your face at every single turn (sometimes, sure, but not all the time forever) as the most evident thing we do. It is not the lurking self-appointed judges who matter. It is the actual experiences of women etc. You wouldn’t expect to see constant updates from any company that is trying really hard to handle gender-related issues, it has other goals too. So like, maybe don’t expect constant updates from EA either, and chill out on trying to drag EAs?
I hope you can take this comment in full stride. On reflection you can likely realize how it appears you’d want to put EAs in a box. It’s not fair given how diverse the EA community is and how many of us were already thinking about these problems and were way before the Time piece? For all the pushing you and other users like you have done these past few months I think you earned a little push*back*
I don’t think stories like this are lost on devoted EAs. But I think that many of us have heard of them many times before and you are going to see less and less handwringing the more the same stories get posted as proof of worse and worse systemic problems. For example I personally was outspoken about the Brent Dill case mentioned above back in 2018, at the time, even though I was new in the community. You could say I was incensed. I even had a meeting with the leader of CFAR at the time (which actually was good of them tbh). Anyway, witnessing that whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth and I definitely kept caring enough that I steered clear of the rationality community (not EA community, they are different!) for years. But as shocked as I was when that came out (as many were), that doesn’t mean I think that it is right to bring that incident up for the rest of time, (if 5 years later is fine, why not 8? Why not 10 years later?), as proof that EA or even the rationality community has a certain problem today.
Like yes, for sure, there was a problem there. For sure there are problems in little bubbles elsewhere, well I’d bet so anyway, because that’s just life right now until society becomes a bit “better” about women. But like, the EA community is huge and diverse and many of us who care about this are frankly tired and are starting to not even be sure that we want to feed a narrative that seems to run away with itself into false, generalized directions? Even if we would like to talk about it...? A lot of us who care are starting to learn that it seems like there isn’t a way to talk about this that doesn’t lead to people hijacking the conversation to shame all EAs, including those of us who care..? And like, it’s totally reasonable if those us who care don’t want to play into generalization of ourselves or the movement we care about, a movement which contains our friends whom we also know don’t deserve to be generalized in this way?
In general I think most EAs are totally cool with people making reports etc, I’d certainly encourage it. 100%. I’ve done so myself multiple times over the 5 years I’ve been in EA, whenever there was something that happened at an actual EA or rat space. I think it is important that things be brought to attention and logged and tracked somehow, and retributive action be taken if necessary. I just wish in these articles and discussions that there were timestamps and more details attached and such so we knew what we actually had to be worried about? Once you look at the timestamps and other details in relation to the hugeness of the EA community you can’t help but notice how much it looks like either cherrypicking OR beating a dead horse and frankly a little sideeyeing of and flatout ignoring journalists (not the women’s primary reports themselves though!) is starting to look very, very fair. For EAs who care enough to want details and stuff, there just isn’t a lot to say especially if you have heard the vague story before?
There are plenty of EAs who want any problems handled, but who also aren’t going to voluntarily put on a badge of shame. But like, some people, possibly you are one of them, seem to want the whole community to put on a badge of shame? It’s like… if people don’t see enough handwringing they think EAs as a group don’t care about women? But EA is 1⁄3 women? Anyway, (constant) shows of handwringing (like again and again in response to stories you have already heard) are not actually what you should care about? You should care about hard numbers and detailed incident reports and what is being done? People making their care evident to you and other lurkers is simply not going to be the priority? Like sorry you can’t see that many of us in EA give a damn, but I think you must not be looking and it isn’t our priority to shove our care in your face at every single turn (sometimes, sure, but not all the time forever) as the most evident thing we do. It is not the lurking self-appointed judges who matter. It is the actual experiences of women etc. You wouldn’t expect to see constant updates from any company that is trying really hard to handle gender-related issues, it has other goals too. So like, maybe don’t expect constant updates from EA either, and chill out on trying to drag EAs?
I hope you can take this comment in full stride. On reflection you can likely realize how it appears you’d want to put EAs in a box. It’s not fair given how diverse the EA community is and how many of us were already thinking about these problems and were way before the Time piece? For all the pushing you and other users like you have done these past few months I think you earned a little push*back*