[Deleting the earlier part of my comment because it involved an anonymized allegation of misconduct I made, that upon reflection, I feel uncomfortable making public.]
I also want to state, in response to Ivy’s comment, that I am a woman in EA who has been demoralized by my experience of casual sexism within it. I’ve not experience sexual harassment. But the way the Bloomberg piece describes the way EA/rats talk about women feels very familiar to me (as someone who interacts only with EAs and not rats). E.g., “5 year old in a hot 20 year old’s body” or introducing a woman as “ratbait.”
Hi to reply to your last paragraph, I am sorry you have been on the recieving end of such comments. You say they are not “sexual harassment” but I want to help provide clarity and a path to resolution by suggesting that, depending on context, comments you have recieved may indeed be sexual harassment. Sorry I don’t have US/CA law on hand to share but I’d guess it would be similar to the UK law on harassment (it’s very short and worth reading!). I recommend readers pay close attention to sections 1.b. and section 4. Also, intention to harass is not a relevant factor usually[1]
While I recommend people try to keep in mind cultural differences as discussed here rather than always assuming bad intent (I’ve been on the receiving end of some ribbing from actualfriendsof mine for being “hot” in EA, which I dish back in different ways), it looks to me like you are already being very careful of what you report (as most women are). So I’d like to also encourage you and other women to look closely and consider whether comment you might receive might actually be harassment, intended or even on technicality. If the comment feels demeaning including assuming too much familiarity, please look twice. Either way, whether you feel reasonably sure it is classed as harassment or not, if you are bothered by a comment, please bring it up. Please have a conversation with the person or report (perhaps even to a mutual friend of you and the speaker) if you don’t want to have the conversation yourself. I hope we can quell problems as a community, but to do that these things must be named at the time or else people doing troubling things keep doing them.
I understand it can be hard or feel overreactive to address comments like that. It isn’t black and white and it’s hard to see where they fall and you might not want to get people in trouble. But legal systems (for example like that law I posted) can provide us good precedent for how and why to address such comments anyway, and what aspects we should focus on, namely your feelings about the matter. If comments bother you I really encourage you to bring them up somehow (to the person or others you trust to handle it), and I hope this comment gives you the cultural context and social sanctioning to do so.
It is important to note when using the term harassment, that intention to harrass is not a deciding factor, legally. (other aspects of context may be though) But of course intention to harrass, or lack thereof, will likely make a difference in how much you are willing to discuss with the person themselves vs opting to report to someone else for them to handle, so I acknowledge that intention to harass is still good for us to keep in mind
Thank you for sharing this. I’m angry that you’ve had these experiences, and I’m grateful you were open to talking about them, even in response to a comment that some found unfriendly.
A lot of the frustration in my initial comment comes from not knowing how to react to things like the Bloomberg article as a mostly-lurker in the community. I don’t know whether I’m going to end up chatting or collaborating with someone who makes sexist comments or sends cruel messages to accusers; I wish I knew whose work I could safely share, promote, etc., without contributing to the influence of people who make the community worse.
While a comment like yours doesn’t name names, it at least helps me get a better handle on how much energy I want to put into engaging with these communities.*
*This is a process that takes the form of thousands of small adjustments; no one comment is decisive, but they all help me figure things out.
[Deleting the earlier part of my comment because it involved an anonymized allegation of misconduct I made, that upon reflection, I feel uncomfortable making public.]
I also want to state, in response to Ivy’s comment, that I am a woman in EA who has been demoralized by my experience of casual sexism within it. I’ve not experience sexual harassment. But the way the Bloomberg piece describes the way EA/rats talk about women feels very familiar to me (as someone who interacts only with EAs and not rats). E.g., “5 year old in a hot 20 year old’s body” or introducing a woman as “ratbait.”
Hi to reply to your last paragraph, I am sorry you have been on the recieving end of such comments. You say they are not “sexual harassment” but I want to help provide clarity and a path to resolution by suggesting that, depending on context, comments you have recieved may indeed be sexual harassment. Sorry I don’t have US/CA law on hand to share but I’d guess it would be similar to the UK law on harassment (it’s very short and worth reading!). I recommend readers pay close attention to sections 1.b. and section 4. Also, intention to harass is not a relevant factor usually[1]
While I recommend people try to keep in mind cultural differences as discussed here rather than always assuming bad intent (I’ve been on the receiving end of some ribbing from actual friends of mine for being “hot” in EA, which I dish back in different ways), it looks to me like you are already being very careful of what you report (as most women are). So I’d like to also encourage you and other women to look closely and consider whether comment you might receive might actually be harassment, intended or even on technicality. If the comment feels demeaning including assuming too much familiarity, please look twice. Either way, whether you feel reasonably sure it is classed as harassment or not, if you are bothered by a comment, please bring it up. Please have a conversation with the person or report (perhaps even to a mutual friend of you and the speaker) if you don’t want to have the conversation yourself. I hope we can quell problems as a community, but to do that these things must be named at the time or else people doing troubling things keep doing them.
I understand it can be hard or feel overreactive to address comments like that. It isn’t black and white and it’s hard to see where they fall and you might not want to get people in trouble. But legal systems (for example like that law I posted) can provide us good precedent for how and why to address such comments anyway, and what aspects we should focus on, namely your feelings about the matter. If comments bother you I really encourage you to bring them up somehow (to the person or others you trust to handle it), and I hope this comment gives you the cultural context and social sanctioning to do so.
It is important to note when using the term harassment, that intention to harrass is not a deciding factor, legally. (other aspects of context may be though) But of course intention to harrass, or lack thereof, will likely make a difference in how much you are willing to discuss with the person themselves vs opting to report to someone else for them to handle, so I acknowledge that intention to harass is still good for us to keep in mind
Thank you for sharing this. I’m angry that you’ve had these experiences, and I’m grateful you were open to talking about them, even in response to a comment that some found unfriendly.
A lot of the frustration in my initial comment comes from not knowing how to react to things like the Bloomberg article as a mostly-lurker in the community. I don’t know whether I’m going to end up chatting or collaborating with someone who makes sexist comments or sends cruel messages to accusers; I wish I knew whose work I could safely share, promote, etc., without contributing to the influence of people who make the community worse.
While a comment like yours doesn’t name names, it at least helps me get a better handle on how much energy I want to put into engaging with these communities.*
*This is a process that takes the form of thousands of small adjustments; no one comment is decisive, but they all help me figure things out.