I think that if the Standard EA Recommendation for middle- to low-income people is “come back when you make more money”, no middle- to low-income people (to a first approximation) will ever become interested in EA.
I think if I made 30k a year and asked someone what EA-related things I could do and they told me “you don’t make enough to worry about donating, try to optimize your income some more and then we’ll talk,” my reaction would be “Ack! I don’t want to upend my entire life! I just want to help some people! These guys are mean.” And then I would stop paying attention to effective altruism.
My general heuristic for stuff like this is that it’s more important for general recommendations to look reasonable than for them to be optimal (within reason). This is because by the time someone is wondering whether your policy is actually optimal, they care enough to be thinking like an effective altruist already, and are less likely to be scared off by a wrong answer than someone who’s evaluating the surface-reasonableness.
Agreed—and there are plenty of ways for people to contribute to EA besides donating. Writing articles, helping organize EA events, and offering support and encouragement to people who are working on more direct things are just the three first things that come to mind.
Any large group working on something needs both people working directly on things, and people who are in support roles and take care of the day-to-day needs of the organization. The notion that all EAs should be working directly on something (I’m counting earning-to-give as “working directly on something”, here) seems clearly wrong.
I think we can both agree that the way you say things is very important. Saying “come back when you make more money” is very different from saying “if you are interested in helping people as effectively as possible it may be wise to consider looking out for yourself first before turning your motivations outward.” There are a lot of reasons for people to worry that their lives are too good in comparison to others’ and therefore they have a moral obligation to help. I think a lot of EA’s have felt this way before. When faced with this sentiment, I think it can be a mistake with regard to actually being effective to devote significant effort into explicit donation rather than personal development.
I think you are also framing the argument to make “making more money” sound like a bad thing that most people don’t want to do. A lot of people already want to make more money, and they feel a conflict between trying their best to become successful VS using the resources / leverage they already have to help others. My argument is that focusing on personal goals and development could kill two birds with one stone for a lot of people and I don’t think it’s as off-putting as you make it sound.
Speaking from my own experience, I have a very high propensity to think about others before myself and I think this can be a flaw and limit productivity in many ways. I think I would ultimately be a more effective altruist if I had spent more of my time pondering “how can I become really good at something / develop valuable skills” rather than “how can I do the most good.”
A lot of people already want to make more money, and they feel a conflict between trying their best to become successful VS using the resources / leverage they already have to help others.
True, but a lot of people are also struggling just to find a job that would be both enjoyable and provide a sufficient wage to pay the bills. Emphasizing making more money could cause them to feel a conflict between finding a job that doesn’t feel soul-crushing VS feeling guilty about being unable to donate much. (Full disclosure: I feel a bit of this, since the career path that I’m currently considering the most isn’t one that I’d expect to make a lot of money.)
“True, but a lot of people are also struggling just to find a job that would be both enjoyable and provide a sufficient wage to pay the bills.”
Agreed, so in that context, how does it make more sense to tell somebody that they should care about helping other people as much as they possibly can? I don’t see that train of thought getting through to many people in this situation.
I don’t want to tell anyone that they should care about helping as many people as possible. I want to tell them that they have a fantastic, exciting opportunity to help lots of people and have a big impact on the world, if they want to.
Someone who is struggling to find a meaningful job might also be someone who’s struggling to find some purpose for their life in general. (This has been true for me.) That might make them exceptionally receptive to a cause that does offer such a purpose.
Yes, this seems right. A lot of people could usefully contribute to effective altruism seem turned off by moralisation. And some effective altruists are demotivated by it. It’s generally pretty easy to make a point about how people can help without using the word ‘should’, ‘ought’ or ‘obligated’. I think it’s better to engage our intuitive and emotional mind with this talk of excitement.
I think that if the Standard EA Recommendation for middle- to low-income people is “come back when you make more money”, no middle- to low-income people (to a first approximation) will ever become interested in EA.
I think if I made 30k a year and asked someone what EA-related things I could do and they told me “you don’t make enough to worry about donating, try to optimize your income some more and then we’ll talk,” my reaction would be “Ack! I don’t want to upend my entire life! I just want to help some people! These guys are mean.” And then I would stop paying attention to effective altruism.
My general heuristic for stuff like this is that it’s more important for general recommendations to look reasonable than for them to be optimal (within reason). This is because by the time someone is wondering whether your policy is actually optimal, they care enough to be thinking like an effective altruist already, and are less likely to be scared off by a wrong answer than someone who’s evaluating the surface-reasonableness.
Agreed—and there are plenty of ways for people to contribute to EA besides donating. Writing articles, helping organize EA events, and offering support and encouragement to people who are working on more direct things are just the three first things that come to mind.
Any large group working on something needs both people working directly on things, and people who are in support roles and take care of the day-to-day needs of the organization. The notion that all EAs should be working directly on something (I’m counting earning-to-give as “working directly on something”, here) seems clearly wrong.
I think we can both agree that the way you say things is very important. Saying “come back when you make more money” is very different from saying “if you are interested in helping people as effectively as possible it may be wise to consider looking out for yourself first before turning your motivations outward.” There are a lot of reasons for people to worry that their lives are too good in comparison to others’ and therefore they have a moral obligation to help. I think a lot of EA’s have felt this way before. When faced with this sentiment, I think it can be a mistake with regard to actually being effective to devote significant effort into explicit donation rather than personal development.
I think you are also framing the argument to make “making more money” sound like a bad thing that most people don’t want to do. A lot of people already want to make more money, and they feel a conflict between trying their best to become successful VS using the resources / leverage they already have to help others. My argument is that focusing on personal goals and development could kill two birds with one stone for a lot of people and I don’t think it’s as off-putting as you make it sound.
Speaking from my own experience, I have a very high propensity to think about others before myself and I think this can be a flaw and limit productivity in many ways. I think I would ultimately be a more effective altruist if I had spent more of my time pondering “how can I become really good at something / develop valuable skills” rather than “how can I do the most good.”
True, but a lot of people are also struggling just to find a job that would be both enjoyable and provide a sufficient wage to pay the bills. Emphasizing making more money could cause them to feel a conflict between finding a job that doesn’t feel soul-crushing VS feeling guilty about being unable to donate much. (Full disclosure: I feel a bit of this, since the career path that I’m currently considering the most isn’t one that I’d expect to make a lot of money.)
“True, but a lot of people are also struggling just to find a job that would be both enjoyable and provide a sufficient wage to pay the bills.”
Agreed, so in that context, how does it make more sense to tell somebody that they should care about helping other people as much as they possibly can? I don’t see that train of thought getting through to many people in this situation.
I don’t want to tell anyone that they should care about helping as many people as possible. I want to tell them that they have a fantastic, exciting opportunity to help lots of people and have a big impact on the world, if they want to.
Someone who is struggling to find a meaningful job might also be someone who’s struggling to find some purpose for their life in general. (This has been true for me.) That might make them exceptionally receptive to a cause that does offer such a purpose.
Yes, this seems right. A lot of people could usefully contribute to effective altruism seem turned off by moralisation. And some effective altruists are demotivated by it. It’s generally pretty easy to make a point about how people can help without using the word ‘should’, ‘ought’ or ‘obligated’. I think it’s better to engage our intuitive and emotional mind with this talk of excitement.