Plausible Moral Rule (PMR): People cannot be morally blameworthy for actions that occurred before they existed.
By the PMR, for instance, HT cannot be blameworthy for a murder committed by Ted Bundy.
Now suppose that HT−1 committed murder on national television.
According to the view of personhood laid out in this post, plus the PMR, it seems like HT is not blameworthy for the murder committed by HT−1.
That seems whacky.
I think that seems whacky for precisely the reason that HT and HT−1 are the same person.
(Quick note: HT seems blameworthy for HT−1’s murder in a way that’s fundamentally different than the way we might say Holden’s parents are blameworthy, even if HT−1 is a minor.)
The reason I don’t agree that this is an issue is that I don’t accept the “plausible moral principle” (I alluded to this briefly in footnote 3 of the piece).
I titled the piece “what counts as death?” because it is focused on personal identity for that purpose. We need not accept “HT is not responsible for HT-1′s actions” in order to accept “HT-1 cares about HT analogously to a close relation, with continuity of experience being unimportant here” or ” HT-1 and HT do not have the kind of special relationship that powers a lot of fears about teleportation being death, and other paradoxes.”
Admittedly, part of the reason I feel OK preserving the normal “responsibility” concept while scrapping the normal “death” concept is that I’m a pragmatist about responsibility: to me, “HT is responsible for HT-1′s actions” means something like “Society should treat HT as responsible for HT-1′s actions; this will get good results.” My position would be a more awkward fit for someone who wanted to think of responsibility as something more fundamental, with a deep moral significance.
re: The Pragmatic View of Blameworthiness/Responsibility
I’m compelled against your “pragmatic” view of moral blame by something like Moore’s open-question argument. It seems like we could first decide whether or not someone is blameworthy and then ask a further, separate question about whether they should be punished. For instance, imagine that Jack was involved in a car accident that resulted in Jill’s death. Eachof the following questions seems independently sensible to me: (a) Is Jack morally responsible (i.e., blameworthy) for Jill’s death? (b) Assuming yes, is it morally right to punish Jack? (Set aside legal considerations for our purposes.)
If the pragmatic view about blameworthiness is correct, asking this second question (b) is as incoherent, vacuous, or nonsensical as saying, “I know there’s water in this glass, but is it H2O that’s in there?” But if determining that (a) Jack is blameworthy for Jill’s death still leaves open (b) the question of whether or not to punish Jack, then blameworthiness and punishment-worthiness are not identical (cf., the pragmatic view).[1]
re: Focus of the Piece was Death, not Moral Blame
I understood that the purpose of your post was to consider the implications of a certain view about personal identity continuity (PIC) for our conception of death. But I was trying to show that this particular view of PIC was incompatible with a commonsense view about moral blame. If they are in fact incompatible, and if the commonsense view about moral blame is right, then we have reason to reject this view of PIC (then don’t need to ask what its implications are for our notions of death).
So is that view of moral blame wrong?
It seems prima facie correct to me that Jack cannot be blameworthy for an action that occurred before Jack existed.
But it seems like you reject this idea. I’ll think harder about whether or not that view of blameworthiness is correct or not. For now:
I see how HT−1 can be (causally, morally) responsible for something that HT does, but I don’t see how HT can be responsible for something HT−1 does unless HT and HT−1 are the same person. For HT to be responsible for something HT−1 does, assuming they’re 2 different people, it seems like you’d have to have a concept of responsibility that is fully independent of causality (assuming no backwards-causation). I’m curious what view that would be.
As an aside, your Footnote 3 seems like a reason HT−1 might have for caring about the interests and wellbeing of HT, but it doesn’t seem like a reason why HT is in fact responsible for that other dude, HT−1 (if they’re 2 different people).
Thanks for your thoughts!
P.S. I’m new to all of this, so if anything about my comments is counter-normative, I’d be thrilled for some feedback!
We can further think about the separability of these two questions by asking (b) irrespective of (a). For instance, there might be pragmatic reasons to punish a car passenger for drinking alcohol even if there’s nothing blameworthy about a passenger drinking alcohol per se.
In response to the paragraph starting “I see how …” (which I can’t copy-paste easily due to the subscripts):
I think there are good pragmatic arguments for taking actions that effectively hold Ht responsible for the actions of Ht-1. For example, if Ht-1 committed premeditated murder, this gives some argument that Ht is more likely to harm others than the average person, and should be accordingly restricted for their benefit. And it’s possible that the general practice of punishing Ht for Ht-1′s actions would generally deter crime, while not creating other perverse effects (more effectively than punishing someone else for Ht-1′s actions).
In my view, that’s enough—I generally don’t buy into the idea that there is something fundamental to the idea of “what people deserve” beyond something like “how people should be treated as part of the functioning of a healthy society.”
But if I didn’t hold this view, I could still just insist on splitting the idea of “the same person” into two different things: it seems coherent to say that Ht-1 and Ht are the same person in one sense and different people in another sense. My main claim is that “myself 1 second from now” and “myself now” are different people in the same sense that “a copy of myself created on another planet” and “myself” are different people; we could simultaneously say that both pairs can be called the “same person” in a different sense, one used for responsibility. (And indeed, it does seem reasonable to me that a copy would be held responsible for actions that the original took before “forking.”)
Let’s say HT is Holden at time T.
Plausible Moral Rule (PMR): People cannot be morally blameworthy for actions that occurred before they existed.
By the PMR, for instance, HT cannot be blameworthy for a murder committed by Ted Bundy.
Now suppose that HT−1 committed murder on national television.
According to the view of personhood laid out in this post, plus the PMR, it seems like HT is not blameworthy for the murder committed by HT−1.
That seems whacky.
I think that seems whacky for precisely the reason that HT and HT−1 are the same person.
(Quick note: HT seems blameworthy for HT−1’s murder in a way that’s fundamentally different than the way we might say Holden’s parents are blameworthy, even if HT−1 is a minor.)
Me: *pours water on Holden’s head*
Holden: WTF??!
Me, 1 second later: It wasn’t me!
Holden, considers:
“Yeah it was! I saw you!”; or
“Fair enough.”
The reason I don’t agree that this is an issue is that I don’t accept the “plausible moral principle” (I alluded to this briefly in footnote 3 of the piece).
I titled the piece “what counts as death?” because it is focused on personal identity for that purpose. We need not accept “HT is not responsible for HT-1′s actions” in order to accept “HT-1 cares about HT analogously to a close relation, with continuity of experience being unimportant here” or ” HT-1 and HT do not have the kind of special relationship that powers a lot of fears about teleportation being death, and other paradoxes.”
Admittedly, part of the reason I feel OK preserving the normal “responsibility” concept while scrapping the normal “death” concept is that I’m a pragmatist about responsibility: to me, “HT is responsible for HT-1′s actions” means something like “Society should treat HT as responsible for HT-1′s actions; this will get good results.” My position would be a more awkward fit for someone who wanted to think of responsibility as something more fundamental, with a deep moral significance.
Thanks for your thoughts, Holden! Fun to engage.
re: The Pragmatic View of Blameworthiness/Responsibility
I’m compelled against your “pragmatic” view of moral blame by something like Moore’s open-question argument. It seems like we could first decide whether or not someone is blameworthy and then ask a further, separate question about whether they should be punished. For instance, imagine that Jack was involved in a car accident that resulted in Jill’s death. Each of the following questions seems independently sensible to me:
(a) Is Jack morally responsible (i.e., blameworthy) for Jill’s death?
(b) Assuming yes, is it morally right to punish Jack? (Set aside legal considerations for our purposes.)
If the pragmatic view about blameworthiness is correct, asking this second question (b) is as incoherent, vacuous, or nonsensical as saying, “I know there’s water in this glass, but is it H2O that’s in there?” But if determining that (a) Jack is blameworthy for Jill’s death still leaves open (b) the question of whether or not to punish Jack, then blameworthiness and punishment-worthiness are not identical (cf., the pragmatic view).[1]
re: Focus of the Piece was Death, not Moral Blame
I understood that the purpose of your post was to consider the implications of a certain view about personal identity continuity (PIC) for our conception of death. But I was trying to show that this particular view of PIC was incompatible with a commonsense view about moral blame. If they are in fact incompatible, and if the commonsense view about moral blame is right, then we have reason to reject this view of PIC (then don’t need to ask what its implications are for our notions of death).
So is that view of moral blame wrong?
It seems prima facie correct to me that Jack cannot be blameworthy for an action that occurred before Jack existed.
But it seems like you reject this idea. I’ll think harder about whether or not that view of blameworthiness is correct or not. For now:
I see how HT−1 can be (causally, morally) responsible for something that HT does, but I don’t see how HT can be responsible for something HT−1 does unless HT and HT−1 are the same person. For HT to be responsible for something HT−1 does, assuming they’re 2 different people, it seems like you’d have to have a concept of responsibility that is fully independent of causality (assuming no backwards-causation). I’m curious what view that would be.
As an aside, your Footnote 3 seems like a reason HT−1 might have for caring about the interests and wellbeing of HT, but it doesn’t seem like a reason why HT is in fact responsible for that other dude, HT−1 (if they’re 2 different people).
Thanks for your thoughts!
P.S. I’m new to all of this, so if anything about my comments is counter-normative, I’d be thrilled for some feedback!
We can further think about the separability of these two questions by asking (b) irrespective of (a). For instance, there might be pragmatic reasons to punish a car passenger for drinking alcohol even if there’s nothing blameworthy about a passenger drinking alcohol per se.
In response to the paragraph starting “I see how …” (which I can’t copy-paste easily due to the subscripts):
I think there are good pragmatic arguments for taking actions that effectively hold Ht responsible for the actions of Ht-1. For example, if Ht-1 committed premeditated murder, this gives some argument that Ht is more likely to harm others than the average person, and should be accordingly restricted for their benefit. And it’s possible that the general practice of punishing Ht for Ht-1′s actions would generally deter crime, while not creating other perverse effects (more effectively than punishing someone else for Ht-1′s actions).
In my view, that’s enough—I generally don’t buy into the idea that there is something fundamental to the idea of “what people deserve” beyond something like “how people should be treated as part of the functioning of a healthy society.”
But if I didn’t hold this view, I could still just insist on splitting the idea of “the same person” into two different things: it seems coherent to say that Ht-1 and Ht are the same person in one sense and different people in another sense. My main claim is that “myself 1 second from now” and “myself now” are different people in the same sense that “a copy of myself created on another planet” and “myself” are different people; we could simultaneously say that both pairs can be called the “same person” in a different sense, one used for responsibility. (And indeed, it does seem reasonable to me that a copy would be held responsible for actions that the original took before “forking.”)