I agree that having a life outside of EA is good. I also know that a lot of people really want kids, and it wouldn’t surprise me if having kids made many more satisfied with their lives, some happier and some more productive.
If you’re willing to move to a 3-bedroom in Manchester for kids, why not do so without kids and get roommates to save costs instead? Or rent a smaller place in Manchester?
why not do so without kids and get roommates to save costs instead? Or rent a smaller place in Manchester?
Indeed. I would recommend that for anyone trying to be frugal so they can save/donate more (especially if they can work remotely). My point is, however, that unless you are already living a maximally frugal lifestyle, it’s possible to reduce your living costs in other areas such that having children needn’t be financially expensive. Children aren’t necessarily a special case of “expensive living costs”. It’s ultimately a matter of prioritisation.
Children are one of the largest financial costs and opportunity costs that the average person spends on, so they are one of the first things someone should not take for granted. Living somewhere significantly more expensive should be one, too, yes. Owning a vehicle is another. I think all three would need to be justified by their benefits (according to an impartial worldview), and whether or not they’re justified depends on the particulars.
I think it’s possible some people would be much less productive without children, because they’d be much less motivated. I think this is primarily how having kids would be justified, although we should be careful about motivated reasoning here, and in general with justifying expensive things we think we need to be more productive. Sometimes there are much cheaper solutions depending on your circumstances, e.g. grocery delivery and riding a bike instead of owning a car, or commuting to work (with a car or by public transit) from somewhere much cheaper.
If too few EAs have children, this might make us too weird and exclusive, and the children themselves might go on to do good, but, on the margin, it sounds like we have more cost-effective forms of outreach.
″… on the margin, it sounds like we have more cost-effective forms of outreach.”
Could you say more about what you have in mind?
(Asking because I personally don’t see any compelling alternative to a substantial fraction of EA folks raising children, especially when I consider a > 20-year time horizon.)
He basically agrees with Michael that having children and raising them as EAs is unlikely to be as cost-effective as spreading EA to existing adults. He also seems to feel somewhat uncomfortable about the idea of raising children as EAs.
I’m personally not sure, but this is what I hear from others in this thread and elsewhere. I’d be thinking the EA Community fund, university groups, running EA fellowships, GWWC, TLYCS, EA orgs to take volunteers/interns. Maybe we are close to saturation with the people who would be sympathetic to EA, and we just need to make more people at this point, but I don’t think this is the case, since there’s still room for more local groups.
I’ve been the primary organizer for the EA club at my university for a couple years, and I think a few of the members would not have been into EA at all or nearly as much without me (no one else would have run it if I didn’t when I did, after the previous presidents left the city), but maybe they would have found their way into EA eventually anyway, and there’s of course a risk of value drift. This is less work than raising a child (maybe 5-10 hours/week EDIT: or is that similar to raising a child or more? Once they’re in school, it might take less work?), has no financial cost, and I made close friends doing it. I think starting a local group where there isn’t one (or running an otherwise fairly inactive one) can get you at least one new fairly dedicated EA per year, but I’m not sure how many dedicated EA person-years that actually buys you.
How likely is the child of an EA to be an EA in the long run? And does it lead to value drift for the parents?
I agree that having a life outside of EA is good. I also know that a lot of people really want kids, and it wouldn’t surprise me if having kids made many more satisfied with their lives, some happier and some more productive.
If you’re willing to move to a 3-bedroom in Manchester for kids, why not do so without kids and get roommates to save costs instead? Or rent a smaller place in Manchester?
Indeed. I would recommend that for anyone trying to be frugal so they can save/donate more (especially if they can work remotely). My point is, however, that unless you are already living a maximally frugal lifestyle, it’s possible to reduce your living costs in other areas such that having children needn’t be financially expensive. Children aren’t necessarily a special case of “expensive living costs”. It’s ultimately a matter of prioritisation.
Children are one of the largest financial costs and opportunity costs that the average person spends on, so they are one of the first things someone should not take for granted. Living somewhere significantly more expensive should be one, too, yes. Owning a vehicle is another. I think all three would need to be justified by their benefits (according to an impartial worldview), and whether or not they’re justified depends on the particulars.
I think it’s possible some people would be much less productive without children, because they’d be much less motivated. I think this is primarily how having kids would be justified, although we should be careful about motivated reasoning here, and in general with justifying expensive things we think we need to be more productive. Sometimes there are much cheaper solutions depending on your circumstances, e.g. grocery delivery and riding a bike instead of owning a car, or commuting to work (with a car or by public transit) from somewhere much cheaper.
If too few EAs have children, this might make us too weird and exclusive, and the children themselves might go on to do good, but, on the margin, it sounds like we have more cost-effective forms of outreach.
″… on the margin, it sounds like we have more cost-effective forms of outreach.”
Could you say more about what you have in mind?
(Asking because I personally don’t see any compelling alternative to a substantial fraction of EA folks raising children, especially when I consider a > 20-year time horizon.)
By the way, Toby Ord weighs in on this at 24:33 in his Global Reconnect interview.
He basically agrees with Michael that having children and raising them as EAs is unlikely to be as cost-effective as spreading EA to existing adults. He also seems to feel somewhat uncomfortable about the idea of raising children as EAs.
I’m personally not sure, but this is what I hear from others in this thread and elsewhere. I’d be thinking the EA Community fund, university groups, running EA fellowships, GWWC, TLYCS, EA orgs to take volunteers/interns. Maybe we are close to saturation with the people who would be sympathetic to EA, and we just need to make more people at this point, but I don’t think this is the case, since there’s still room for more local groups.
I’ve been the primary organizer for the EA club at my university for a couple years, and I think a few of the members would not have been into EA at all or nearly as much without me (no one else would have run it if I didn’t when I did, after the previous presidents left the city), but maybe they would have found their way into EA eventually anyway, and there’s of course a risk of value drift. This is less work than raising a child (maybe 5-10 hours/week EDIT: or is that similar to raising a child or more? Once they’re in school, it might take less work?), has no financial cost, and I made close friends doing it. I think starting a local group where there isn’t one (or running an otherwise fairly inactive one) can get you at least one new fairly dedicated EA per year, but I’m not sure how many dedicated EA person-years that actually buys you.
How likely is the child of an EA to be an EA in the long run? And does it lead to value drift for the parents?