“but just because you can’t rationally conclude something from first principles doesn’t mean you can’t rationally conclude it at all”
The implication here is you are rationally concluding it using your own values as a starting point. I don’t think there is an easy way to adjucate disagreements when this is how we arrive at views. You are trying to talk about meta-ethics but this will turn into a political philosophy question.
“There’s no way to get to science from first principles, but rational scientific argumentation still exists.”
I have heard this argument multiple times and I still don’t get it. Science is a process that we can check the results of in real life, because it deals with real quantities. The fact that science doesn’t exist from first principles doesn’t mean we can use empirics to back up the validity of science in pushing forth our understanding of the world. We have seen time and time again that science does work for the purposes we want it to work for. Morality isn’t a physical quantity. We can’t use empiricism w/respect to morals. Hence we only have logic to lean on.
“which the anti-realist and the realist can both accept, by the way, there’s no connection here with anti-realism”
Sort of agree but not really. Here are the options as I see them.
Objective Morality doesn’t exist (anti-realism). This directly implies there is no first-principles derivation because if there was it would exist.
Objective Morality exists and we can prove it (maybe we can call this secular realism)
Objective Morality exists and we can’t prove it (potentially offensive but this basically sounds like religion or faith)
If you are saying you buy into bullet point 3 that’s fine but I would be upset if EA accepted this explicitly or implicitly.
I think you’ve run together several different positions about moral epistemology and meta-ethics. Your three bullet points definitely do not describe the whole range of positions here. For example: RM Hare was an anti-realist (the anti-realist par excellence, even) but believed in a first principles derivation of morality; you may have come across his position in the earlier works of his most famous student, Peter Singer. (Singer has since become a realist, under the influence of Derek Parfit). Likewise, you can have those who are as realist as realists can be, and who accept that we can know moral truths, but not that we can prove them. This seems to be what you’re denying in your comment—you think the only hope for moral epistemology is first-principles logic—but that’s a strong claim, and pretty much all meta-ethical naturalists have accounts of how we can know morality through some kind of natural understanding.
For myself, I’m a pretty strong anti-realist, but for reasons that have very little to do with traditional questions of moral epistemology; so I actually have a lot of sympathy with the accounts of moral epistemology given by many different metaethical naturalists, as well as by those who have straddled the realist/anti-realist line (e.g. constructivists, or Crispin Wright whatever name you want to give to his position), if their positions are suitably modified.
“For example: RM Hare was an anti-realist (the anti-realist par excellence, even) but believed in a first principles derivation of morality”
I’m confused. He thinks you can derive that morality doesn’t exist or he thinks you can derive something that doesn’t exist?
“This seems to be what you’re denying in your comment—you think the only hope for moral epistemology is first-principles logic—but that’s a strong claim, and pretty much all meta-ethical naturalists have accounts of how we can know morality through some kind of natural understanding.”
I mean it depends on what you mean by moral epistemology. If you just mean a decision tree that I might like to use for deciding my morals I think it exists. If you mean a decision tree that I Should follow then I disagree.
The implication here is you are rationally concluding it using your own values as a starting point. I don’t think there is an easy way to adjucate disagreements when this is how we arrive at views. You are trying to talk about meta-ethics but this will turn into a political philosophy question.
I have heard this argument multiple times and I still don’t get it. Science is a process that we can check the results of in real life, because it deals with real quantities. The fact that science doesn’t exist from first principles doesn’t mean we can use empirics to back up the validity of science in pushing forth our understanding of the world. We have seen time and time again that science does work for the purposes we want it to work for. Morality isn’t a physical quantity. We can’t use empiricism w/respect to morals. Hence we only have logic to lean on.
Sort of agree but not really. Here are the options as I see them.
Objective Morality doesn’t exist (anti-realism). This directly implies there is no first-principles derivation because if there was it would exist.
Objective Morality exists and we can prove it (maybe we can call this secular realism)
Objective Morality exists and we can’t prove it (potentially offensive but this basically sounds like religion or faith)
If you are saying you buy into bullet point 3 that’s fine but I would be upset if EA accepted this explicitly or implicitly.
I think you’ve run together several different positions about moral epistemology and meta-ethics. Your three bullet points definitely do not describe the whole range of positions here. For example: RM Hare was an anti-realist (the anti-realist par excellence, even) but believed in a first principles derivation of morality; you may have come across his position in the earlier works of his most famous student, Peter Singer. (Singer has since become a realist, under the influence of Derek Parfit). Likewise, you can have those who are as realist as realists can be, and who accept that we can know moral truths, but not that we can prove them. This seems to be what you’re denying in your comment—you think the only hope for moral epistemology is first-principles logic—but that’s a strong claim, and pretty much all meta-ethical naturalists have accounts of how we can know morality through some kind of natural understanding.
For myself, I’m a pretty strong anti-realist, but for reasons that have very little to do with traditional questions of moral epistemology; so I actually have a lot of sympathy with the accounts of moral epistemology given by many different metaethical naturalists, as well as by those who have straddled the realist/anti-realist line (e.g. constructivists, or Crispin Wright whatever name you want to give to his position), if their positions are suitably modified.
I’m confused. He thinks you can derive that morality doesn’t exist or he thinks you can derive something that doesn’t exist?
I mean it depends on what you mean by moral epistemology. If you just mean a decision tree that I might like to use for deciding my morals I think it exists. If you mean a decision tree that I Should follow then I disagree.