NOTE: I will abbreviate (“reaching out” + “right to reply” as R+R)
Appreciate the clarification. Do you have any advice for people like myself who have a very different perspective on the value of what you recommend (i.e. R+R)? The way you have described it, I would normal consider the decision of what to do to be within my discretion as a poster. As an analogy, I try to write well reasoned arguments, but I understand that not too infrequently I will probably fail to do so. I might write something and think that I could refine the arguments if I took more time but decide what I have is good enough. But R+R seems much more binary than “make well reasoned arguments”. Its hard for me to shake the feeling that it would be perceived as doing something distinctly “wrong” to fail to do so in certain cases.
General disagreement/ critical engagement with the ideas of an organisation could technically fall into this category, but is generally read as more collaborative than as an accusation of wrongdoing.
This seems like it could get awfully messy. I think strong disagreements tend to coincide with different views on the nature of the criticism and how accusatory it is, what appropriate tone is etc. It seems like the exact cases where some guidance is most needed are when people will heavily contest these types of issues.
Related to that, one of my concerns is focusing too much on R+R may predictably lead to what I consider unproductive discussions. I think back-and-forth among people who disagree has great value. I worry focusing on R+R has a “going meta” problem. People will argue about whether the degree of R+R done by the critic was justified instead of focusing on the object level merits of the criticism. The R+R debate can become a proxy war for people who’s main crux is really the merits.
I also worry that expectations around R+R won’t necessarily be applied consistently. I worry that R+R is in a sense a “regressive tax” on criticism, that R+R may in practice advantage orgs with more influence over orgs/people with less influence. I also worry that there may a “right targets” dynamic, where people criticizing “the right targets” may not be subject to the same expectations as people targeting well-liked EA orgs. This is why some of my questions above relate to “who” R+R applies to.
I think the Forum is naturally quite sceptical and won’t let bad faith arguments stand for long
I agree with this, but the logic to me suggests that R+R might not really be needed? The OP raises the concern that orgs will have to scramble to answer criticism, but if they think people on the Forum will find the criticism might be warranted, doesn’t that indicate that it would in fact be valuable for the org to respond? I personally think this overall would produce a better result without R+R, because orgs could in some (perhaps many) cases rely on commenters to do the work, and only feel the need to respond when a response provides information that the community doesn’t have but would find useful. The fact that they feel the need to respond is a signal that there is information missing that they may uniquely have access to. Are you saying you think the Forum can identify bad faith but can’t identify criticism quality as accurately?
I don’t think it will matter if a bad faith response is published alongside a critique.
I agree, but I think similar reasoning applies to the initial criticism. Its obviously not good to have bad criticism, but its not the end of the world, and I think its often reasonably likely that the Forum will respond appropriately. I think to the extend possible it would be good to have symmetry where there aren’t specific things required because a post is “criticism”.
NOTE: I will abbreviate (“reaching out” + “right to reply” as R+R)
Appreciate the clarification. Do you have any advice for people like myself who have a very different perspective on the value of what you recommend (i.e. R+R)? The way you have described it, I would normal consider the decision of what to do to be within my discretion as a poster. As an analogy, I try to write well reasoned arguments, but I understand that not too infrequently I will probably fail to do so. I might write something and think that I could refine the arguments if I took more time but decide what I have is good enough. But R+R seems much more binary than “make well reasoned arguments”. Its hard for me to shake the feeling that it would be perceived as doing something distinctly “wrong” to fail to do so in certain cases.
This seems like it could get awfully messy. I think strong disagreements tend to coincide with different views on the nature of the criticism and how accusatory it is, what appropriate tone is etc. It seems like the exact cases where some guidance is most needed are when people will heavily contest these types of issues.
Related to that, one of my concerns is focusing too much on R+R may predictably lead to what I consider unproductive discussions. I think back-and-forth among people who disagree has great value. I worry focusing on R+R has a “going meta” problem. People will argue about whether the degree of R+R done by the critic was justified instead of focusing on the object level merits of the criticism. The R+R debate can become a proxy war for people who’s main crux is really the merits.
I also worry that expectations around R+R won’t necessarily be applied consistently. I worry that R+R is in a sense a “regressive tax” on criticism, that R+R may in practice advantage orgs with more influence over orgs/people with less influence. I also worry that there may a “right targets” dynamic, where people criticizing “the right targets” may not be subject to the same expectations as people targeting well-liked EA orgs. This is why some of my questions above relate to “who” R+R applies to.
I agree with this, but the logic to me suggests that R+R might not really be needed? The OP raises the concern that orgs will have to scramble to answer criticism, but if they think people on the Forum will find the criticism might be warranted, doesn’t that indicate that it would in fact be valuable for the org to respond? I personally think this overall would produce a better result without R+R, because orgs could in some (perhaps many) cases rely on commenters to do the work, and only feel the need to respond when a response provides information that the community doesn’t have but would find useful. The fact that they feel the need to respond is a signal that there is information missing that they may uniquely have access to. Are you saying you think the Forum can identify bad faith but can’t identify criticism quality as accurately?
I agree, but I think similar reasoning applies to the initial criticism. Its obviously not good to have bad criticism, but its not the end of the world, and I think its often reasonably likely that the Forum will respond appropriately. I think to the extend possible it would be good to have symmetry where there aren’t specific things required because a post is “criticism”.