I find myself really quite strongly against this. I’ll try to find the time to compose a comment explaining why, but for now I’ll simply state this as a data point.
if you aren’t yet a member of Giving What We Can, would you join if this change was made?
I’m not a member, but I’ve been seriously considering joining for a while, and probably wouldn’t join if this change was made, as a large part of the appeal of publicly joining GWWC is being part of a community focused on global poverty, rather than of singularitarians, rationalists and the like (who have their own communities).
I don’t think it’s accurate to say that if the pledge were changed, GWWC would become a community of “singularitarians, rationalists and the like.” It would be a community of people who want to donate 10% of their income to most effectively improve the lives of others, which could include singularitarians and rationalists, but certainly wouldn’t be defined by it. Saying you wouldn’t want to take the pledge for this reason seems a bit like saying you don’t want to be part of the EA community because it contains those people.
Also, note that the current pledge doesn’t actually exclude singularitarians, rationalists etc.: “The change is not likely to make a difference to people who think that the best way to help others is to ensure that the future will go well, since the pledge already explicitly includes people who will live in the future, as well as those alive now.” So it’s unlikely that changing the pledge would result in the community changing in the way you’re concerned about.
Saying you wouldn’t want to take the pledge for this reason seems a bit like saying you don’t want to be part of the EA community because it contains those people.
I see why you might say that, and understand your position, but I hope you can see how it could be a little uncharitable to those of us who feel crowded out of what was originally an organisation that made a compelling case about our obligation to help people in the developing world (with things like the calculator showing that many potential GWWC members were in the richest 1-5% of the world). You say that changing the pledge would just include additional groups, and that this wouldn’t define it. But—without having anything against people who are focused on different causes! - I don’t think we should broaden the pledge (or other global poverty pledges/groups) just because we can do so without technically excluding people who took the old version.
You make it sound a bit like I’m being unwelcoming to other groups. But I think that they have their own venues (look at the size of LessWrong and its meetups), and that there’s merit in having multiple venues with clear purposes. Being “part of the EA community” is more amorphous than having taken a pledge to help those in the developing world, so I’m happy to be in a (non-formal sense) part of a community that contains singularitarians, animal welfare activists and many others. But if I found that I’d taken a pledge which was then changed to drop its original focus on the developing world and stated rationale, I’d see that as a broadening which wasn’t automatically good.
[It] could include singularitarians and rationalists, but certainly wouldn’t be defined by it
This is true in one sense—if I’ve committed to doing X as the best way to do Y, then however many other people then commit to Z as the best way to do Y, that doesn’t change the definition of my commitment. But, purely as a hypothetical, imagine that GWWC central made a big effort to sign up lots of new members from a particular group—either singularitarians or vegan outreach activists or something else. And imagine that they dwarfed the original member base, which might be seen as a big success. That would ‘define’ GWWC in _a_ sense.
Also, note that the current pledge doesn’t actually exclude singularitarians, rationalists etc.: “The change is not likely to make a difference to people who think that the best way to help others is to ensure that the future will go well, since the pledge already explicitly includes people who will live in the future, as well as those alive now.”
“I recognise that I can use part of my income to do a significant amount of good in the developing world. Since I can live well enough on a smaller income, I pledge that for the rest of my life or until the day I retire, I shall give at least ten percent of what I earn to whichever organisations can most effectively use it to help people in developing countries, now and in the years to come. I make this pledge freely, openly, and sincerely.”
I’m guessing that a singularitarian could read that as something she could sign up to as she’s technically aiming to “help people in developing countries”—just by helping the entire population! It seems a bit of a stretch, but I can see that. It’s less obviously something that CFAR does.
Anyway, I’ve violated my original plan not to comment more until I had extra time, but I hope this helps you understand where I’m coming from :-)
There is a not insignificant portion of rationalists who at least don’t believe existing existential risk reduction research organizations are the best charities to donate to. I’m sure there are some who believe donating money to anti-poverty charities are the best option, but for all I know they could be rare among rationalists. I believe lots of rationalists aren’t confident about which cause area is most worthy, but I don’t know what portion of them donate anyway. I believe some people in this latter group split their donations, so I’d be interested to know if in their case they’ve taken the Giving What We Can pledge, and then donate additional money beyond that 10% to reducing global poverty to other types of charities.
I find myself really quite strongly against this. I’ll try to find the time to compose a comment explaining why, but for now I’ll simply state this as a data point.
To answer this question:
I’m not a member, but I’ve been seriously considering joining for a while, and probably wouldn’t join if this change was made, as a large part of the appeal of publicly joining GWWC is being part of a community focused on global poverty, rather than of singularitarians, rationalists and the like (who have their own communities).
I don’t think it’s accurate to say that if the pledge were changed, GWWC would become a community of “singularitarians, rationalists and the like.” It would be a community of people who want to donate 10% of their income to most effectively improve the lives of others, which could include singularitarians and rationalists, but certainly wouldn’t be defined by it. Saying you wouldn’t want to take the pledge for this reason seems a bit like saying you don’t want to be part of the EA community because it contains those people.
Also, note that the current pledge doesn’t actually exclude singularitarians, rationalists etc.: “The change is not likely to make a difference to people who think that the best way to help others is to ensure that the future will go well, since the pledge already explicitly includes people who will live in the future, as well as those alive now.” So it’s unlikely that changing the pledge would result in the community changing in the way you’re concerned about.
I see why you might say that, and understand your position, but I hope you can see how it could be a little uncharitable to those of us who feel crowded out of what was originally an organisation that made a compelling case about our obligation to help people in the developing world (with things like the calculator showing that many potential GWWC members were in the richest 1-5% of the world). You say that changing the pledge would just include additional groups, and that this wouldn’t define it. But—without having anything against people who are focused on different causes! - I don’t think we should broaden the pledge (or other global poverty pledges/groups) just because we can do so without technically excluding people who took the old version.
You make it sound a bit like I’m being unwelcoming to other groups. But I think that they have their own venues (look at the size of LessWrong and its meetups), and that there’s merit in having multiple venues with clear purposes. Being “part of the EA community” is more amorphous than having taken a pledge to help those in the developing world, so I’m happy to be in a (non-formal sense) part of a community that contains singularitarians, animal welfare activists and many others. But if I found that I’d taken a pledge which was then changed to drop its original focus on the developing world and stated rationale, I’d see that as a broadening which wasn’t automatically good.
This is true in one sense—if I’ve committed to doing X as the best way to do Y, then however many other people then commit to Z as the best way to do Y, that doesn’t change the definition of my commitment. But, purely as a hypothetical, imagine that GWWC central made a big effort to sign up lots of new members from a particular group—either singularitarians or vegan outreach activists or something else. And imagine that they dwarfed the original member base, which might be seen as a big success. That would ‘define’ GWWC in _a_ sense.
I was initially puzzled by this, as the text of the pledge is:
I’m guessing that a singularitarian could read that as something she could sign up to as she’s technically aiming to “help people in developing countries”—just by helping the entire population! It seems a bit of a stretch, but I can see that. It’s less obviously something that CFAR does.
Anyway, I’ve violated my original plan not to comment more until I had extra time, but I hope this helps you understand where I’m coming from :-)
There is a not insignificant portion of rationalists who at least don’t believe existing existential risk reduction research organizations are the best charities to donate to. I’m sure there are some who believe donating money to anti-poverty charities are the best option, but for all I know they could be rare among rationalists. I believe lots of rationalists aren’t confident about which cause area is most worthy, but I don’t know what portion of them donate anyway. I believe some people in this latter group split their donations, so I’d be interested to know if in their case they’ve taken the Giving What We Can pledge, and then donate additional money beyond that 10% to reducing global poverty to other types of charities.