Regarding point 3): I don’t think EA necessarily has a more compelling ideology. One of the big differences I see between the two movements is that SJ is an extremely inclusive movement (basically by definition) when it comes to participation within the movemrnt: who can be a part of the movement, make a difference, and contribute even if the application of this principle may be flawed.
This seems pretty different from EA, and depending on your entry point to EA could put people off and I’m not quite sure how to
reconcile that.
Do you see this as an issue (and on what scale)? Do you have any sense of how to reconcile this issue?
Yeah, EA is likely less compelling when this is defined as feeling motivating/interesting to the average person at the moment, although it is hard to judge since EA hasn’t been around for anywhere near as long. Nonetheless, many of the issues EAs care about seem way too weird for the average person, then again if you look at feminism, a lot of the ideas were only ever present in an overly academic form. Part of the reason why they are so influential now is that they have filtered down into the general population in a simpler form (such as “girl power”, “feeling good, rationality bad”). Plus social justice is more likely to benefit the people supporting it in the here and now than EA which focuses more on other countries, other species and other times which is always a tough sell.
SJ is an extremely inclusive movement (basically by definition)
I’m generally wary of argument by definition. Indeed, SJ is very inclusive to members of a racial minority or those who are LGBTI, but is very much not when it comes to ideological diversity. And some strands can be very unwelcoming to members of majorities. So it’s much more complex than that.
I phrased that poorly—I added the bit even if the principle is not applied perfectly to cover what you mentioned but I think the more accurate statement would be that one of SJ’s big appeals is that it states to be inclusive.
I do basically think that EA could learn a lot of things from SJ in terms of being an inclusive movement. I think it’s possible that there’s a lot of value to be had (in EA terms) in continuing to increase the inclusivity of EA.
I agree that part of the issue is who feels empowered to make a difference. Part of this is because SJ, in my view, often focuses on things that are not very marginally impactful, but to which many people can contribute. However, I am very excited about recent efforts within the EA community to support a variety of career paths and routes to impact beyond the main ones identified by main EA orgs.
Thanks for listing this as one of your five topics of interest and thanks to everyone for insightful comments.
I do basically think that EA could learn a lot of things from SJ in terms of being an inclusive movement.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Beyond movement building & inclusivity, I’d be curious to hear about other domains where you think that EA could learn from the social justice movement/philosophy? E.g., in terms of the methodologies and academic disciplines that the respective movements tend to rely on, epistemic norms, ethical frameworks, etc.
Beyond movement building & inclusivity, I think it makes sense for EA as a movement to keep their current approach because it’s been working pretty well IMO.
I think the thing EAs as people (with a worldview that includes things beyond EA) might want to consider—and which SJ could inform—is the demands that historical injustices of, e.g., colonialism, racism, etc. make on us. I think those demands are plausibly quite large and failure to satisfy them could constitute a ongoing moral catastrophe. Since they’re not welfarist, they’re outside the scope of EA as it currently exists. But for moral uncertainty reasons I think many people should think about them.
Regarding point 3): I don’t think EA necessarily has a more compelling ideology. One of the big differences I see between the two movements is that SJ is an extremely inclusive movement (basically by definition) when it comes to participation within the movemrnt: who can be a part of the movement, make a difference, and contribute even if the application of this principle may be flawed.
This seems pretty different from EA, and depending on your entry point to EA could put people off and I’m not quite sure how to reconcile that.
Do you see this as an issue (and on what scale)? Do you have any sense of how to reconcile this issue?
Yeah, EA is likely less compelling when this is defined as feeling motivating/interesting to the average person at the moment, although it is hard to judge since EA hasn’t been around for anywhere near as long. Nonetheless, many of the issues EAs care about seem way too weird for the average person, then again if you look at feminism, a lot of the ideas were only ever present in an overly academic form. Part of the reason why they are so influential now is that they have filtered down into the general population in a simpler form (such as “girl power”, “feeling good, rationality bad”). Plus social justice is more likely to benefit the people supporting it in the here and now than EA which focuses more on other countries, other species and other times which is always a tough sell.
I’m generally wary of argument by definition. Indeed, SJ is very inclusive to members of a racial minority or those who are LGBTI, but is very much not when it comes to ideological diversity. And some strands can be very unwelcoming to members of majorities. So it’s much more complex than that.
I phrased that poorly—I added the bit even if the principle is not applied perfectly to cover what you mentioned but I think the more accurate statement would be that one of SJ’s big appeals is that it states to be inclusive.
I do basically think that EA could learn a lot of things from SJ in terms of being an inclusive movement. I think it’s possible that there’s a lot of value to be had (in EA terms) in continuing to increase the inclusivity of EA.
I agree that part of the issue is who feels empowered to make a difference. Part of this is because SJ, in my view, often focuses on things that are not very marginally impactful, but to which many people can contribute. However, I am very excited about recent efforts within the EA community to support a variety of career paths and routes to impact beyond the main ones identified by main EA orgs.
Thanks for listing this as one of your five topics of interest and thanks to everyone for insightful comments.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Beyond movement building & inclusivity, I’d be curious to hear about other domains where you think that EA could learn from the social justice movement/philosophy? E.g., in terms of the methodologies and academic disciplines that the respective movements tend to rely on, epistemic norms, ethical frameworks, etc.
Beyond movement building & inclusivity, I think it makes sense for EA as a movement to keep their current approach because it’s been working pretty well IMO.
I think the thing EAs as people (with a worldview that includes things beyond EA) might want to consider—and which SJ could inform—is the demands that historical injustices of, e.g., colonialism, racism, etc. make on us. I think those demands are plausibly quite large and failure to satisfy them could constitute a ongoing moral catastrophe. Since they’re not welfarist, they’re outside the scope of EA as it currently exists. But for moral uncertainty reasons I think many people should think about them.