Thank you for writing this Tyler! I really enjoyed it.
I have had a similar journey recently. I’ve also heard a bunch of other examples from people in this community with similar stories.
There is an interesting tension I find when communicating about this:
If someone’s motivational framework is fundamentally shackled to a dominant, altruistic part, then the benefits of losing the shackles need to put in terms that that part will value. But to really succeed at this you need to genuinely abandon the idea that the values of that part of you are above your other values.
For example I’ve found myself saying things like “now that I have this perspective, I feel better, and more intrinsically motivated, but am not being any less altruistic, I may even be more altruistic across my life”.
You touch on this here:
This doesn’t imply discarding the useful outcomes of activities. In fact, I find that when I engage something for its own sake, I’m far more likely to produce virtuosic work. At a meeting of the rationality community, Anna Salamon once argued that to use truth-seeking as solely a means to fight existential risk (x-risk) would compromise the activity of truth-seeking – for instance, by cutting corners while rushing for an answer. So she proposed an alternative: “Rationality for rationality’s sake…for x-risk’s sake.”
This has the flavour of a trick to me. In order to be free to follow other ends intrinsically, you need to be vulnerable to the prospect of actually being less altruistic, of actually ending up doing less good. Maybe this is a necessary trick? Is there is a way of negotiating with the dominant part that allows it to let go in full knowledge of its vulnerability?
Yes, I find trying to make that part less dominant most promising here. If it secretly is still dominant while you pretend engaging in other things for their own sake, you will get this “trick” flavour.
For me, this part only ended up less dominant once it could fully comprehend that it wasn’t leading to good places even by its own light. (I would go: “See, optimiser-Ronja, we have followed your lead for a while now, and we’ve ended up absolutely depressed and unable to do anything at all. I know you don’t want that either. So, please, let go of your grip for a while as we figure out other approaches.”)
This dialogue with my optimizer-self, showing it evidence that it was undermining its own values by ignoring my other values, was very helpful for me too.
Thank you for writing this Tyler! I really enjoyed it.
I have had a similar journey recently. I’ve also heard a bunch of other examples from people in this community with similar stories.
There is an interesting tension I find when communicating about this:
If someone’s motivational framework is fundamentally shackled to a dominant, altruistic part, then the benefits of losing the shackles need to put in terms that that part will value. But to really succeed at this you need to genuinely abandon the idea that the values of that part of you are above your other values.
For example I’ve found myself saying things like “now that I have this perspective, I feel better, and more intrinsically motivated, but am not being any less altruistic, I may even be more altruistic across my life”.
You touch on this here:
This has the flavour of a trick to me. In order to be free to follow other ends intrinsically, you need to be vulnerable to the prospect of actually being less altruistic, of actually ending up doing less good. Maybe this is a necessary trick? Is there is a way of negotiating with the dominant part that allows it to let go in full knowledge of its vulnerability?
(an approach that has seemed to be working for me here has been comfort zone expansion with respect the feeling of being a bad person.)
Yes, I find trying to make that part less dominant most promising here. If it secretly is still dominant while you pretend engaging in other things for their own sake, you will get this “trick” flavour.
For me, this part only ended up less dominant once it could fully comprehend that it wasn’t leading to good places even by its own light. (I would go: “See, optimiser-Ronja, we have followed your lead for a while now, and we’ve ended up absolutely depressed and unable to do anything at all. I know you don’t want that either. So, please, let go of your grip for a while as we figure out other approaches.”)
This dialogue with my optimizer-self, showing it evidence that it was undermining its own values by ignoring my other values, was very helpful for me too.