Hey kbog, if you don’t mind, let’s ignore my example with the 5000 pains because I think my argument can more clearly be made in terms of my toothache example since I have already laid a foundation for it. Let me restate that foundation and then state my argument in terms of my toothache example. Thanks for bearing with me.
The foundation:
Suppose 5 minor toothaches had by one person is experientially just as bad as 1 major toothache had by one person.
Given the supposition, you would claim: 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people involves the same amount of pain as 1 major toothache had by one person.
Let me explain what I think is your reasoning step by step:
P1) 5 minor toothaches had by one person and 1 major toothache had by one person give rise to two different what-it’s-likes that are nevertheless experientially JUST AS BAD. (By above supposition)
(The two different what-it’s-likes are: the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-toothaches and the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-major-toothache.)
P2) Therefore, we are entitled to say that 5 minor toothaches had by one person is equivalent to 1 major toothache had by one person. (By P1)
P3) 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is 5 minor toothaches, just as 5 minor toothaches had by one person is 5 minor toothaches, so there is the same quantity of minor toothaches (or same quantity of base units of pain) in both cases. (Self-evident)
P4) Therefore, we are entitled to say that 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 5 minor toothaches had by one person. (By P4)
P5) Therefore, we are entitled to claim that 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 1 major toothache had by one person. (By P2 and P4)
C) Therefore, 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people involves the same amount of pain as 1 major toothache had by one person. (By P5)
As the illustrated reasoning shows, 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people involves the same amount of pain as 1 major toothache had by one person (i.e. C) only if 5 minor toothaches had by ONE person is equivalent to 1 major toothache (i.e. P2). You agree with this.
Moreover, as the illustrated reasoning also shows, the reason why 5 minor toothaches had by one person is equivalent to 1 major toothache (i.e. P2) is because they give rise to two different what-it’s-likes that are nevertheless experientially just as bad (i.e. P1). I presume you agree with this too. Call this reason “Reason E”, E for “experientially just as bad”)
Furthermore, as the illustrated reasoning shows, the reason why 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 5 minor toothache had by one person is DIFFERENT from the reason for why 5 minor headaches had by one person is equivalent to 1 major toothache had by one person. That is, 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 5 minor toothaches had by one person (i.e. P4) because they share the same quantity of base units of pain, namely 5, irrespective of how the 5 base units of pain are spread (i.e. P3), and NOT because they give rise to two what-it’s-likes that are experientially just as bad (as they clearly don’t). Call this reason (i.e. P3) “Reason S”, S for “same quantity of base units of pains”
Argument:
So there are these two different types of reasons underlying your equivalence claims (I will use “=” to signify “is equivalent to”:
5 MiTs/5 people = 5 MiTs/1 person = 1 MaT/1 person
Now, never mind the transitivity problem that Reasons S and E create for your reasoning. Indeed, that’s not the problem I want to raise for your sense of “involves more pain.”
The problem with your sense of “involves more pain” is that it admits of Reason S as a basis for saying X involves more pain than Y. But Reason S, unlike Reason E, is against the spirit of why we take pain to matter. We take pain to matter because of the badness of how it feels, as you rightly claim. But Reason S doesn’t give a crap about how bad the pains on the two sides of the equation FEEL; it doesn’t care that 5 MiTs/1 person constitutes a pain that feels a whole lot worse than any anything on the other side of the equation. It just cares about how many base units of pain there are on each side. And, obviously, more base units of pain does not mean there is experientially worse pain precisely because the base units of pain can be spread out among many different people.
Maybe you think that no amount of minor pains can ever be equally important as one excruciating pain.
This an interesting question. Perhaps the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-an-INFINITE-number-of-a-very-mild-sort-of-pain cannot be experientially worse than the what-it’s-like-of-suffering-one-instance-of-third-degree-burns. If so, then I would think that 1 third-degree burn/1 person is morally worse than infinite mild pains/1 person. In any case, I don’t think what I think here is relevant to my argument against your utilitarian sense of “involves more pain than”.
the reason why 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 5 minor toothache had by one person is DIFFERENT from the reason for why 5 minor headaches had by one person is equivalent to 1 major toothache had by one person.
No, both equivalencies are justified by the fact that they involve the same amount of base units of pain.
But Reason S doesn’t give a crap about how bad the pains on the two sides of the equation FEEL
Sure it does. The presence of pain is equivalent to feeling bad. Feeling bad is precisely what is at stake here, and all that I care about.
In any case, I don’t think what I think here is relevant to my argument against your utilitarian sense of “involves more pain than”.
Yes, that’s what I meant when I said “that’s a question of how we evaluate and represent an individual’s well-being, not a question of interpersonal comparison and aggregation.”
the reason why 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 5 minor toothache had by one person is DIFFERENT from the reason for why 5 minor headaches had by one person is equivalent to 1 major toothache had by one person.
No, both equivalencies are justified by the fact that they involve the same amount of base units of pain.
So you’re saying that just as 5 MiTs/5 people is equivalent to 5 MiTs/1 person because both sides involve the same amount of base units of pain, 5 MiTs/1 person is equivalent to 1 MaT/1 person because both sides involve the same amount of base units of pain (and not because both sides give rise to what-it’s-likes that are experientially just as bad).
My question to you then is this: On what basis are you able to say that 1 MaT/1 person involves 5 base units of pain?
But Reason S doesn’t give a crap about how bad the pains on the two sides of the equation FEEL
Sure it does. The presence of pain is equivalent to feeling bad. Feeling bad is precisely what is at stake here, and all that I care about.
Reason S cares about the amount of base units of pain there are because pain feels bad, but in my opinion, that doesn’t sufficiently show that it cares about pain-qua-how-it-feels. It doesn’t sufficiently show that it cares about pain-qua-how-it-feels because 5 base units of pain all experienced by one person feels a whole heck of a lot worse than anything felt when 5 base units of pain are spread among 5 people, yet Reason S completely ignores this difference. If Reason S truly cared about pain-qua-how-it-feels, it cannot ignore this difference.
I understand where you’re coming from though. You hold that Reason S cares about the quantity of base units of pain precisely because pain feels bad, and that this fact alone sufficiently shows that Reason S is in harmony with the fact that we take pain to matter because of how it feels (i.e. that Reason S cares about pain-qua-how-it-feels).
However, given what I just said, I think this fact alone is too weak to show that Reason S is in harmony with the fact that we take pain to matter because of how it feels. So I believe my objection stands.
On what basis are you able to say that 1 MaT/1 person involves 5 base units of pain?
Because you told me that it’s the same amount of pain as five minor toothaches and you also told me that each minor toothache is 1 base unit of pain.
5 base units of pain all experienced by one person feels a whole heck of a lot worse than anything felt when 5 base units of pain are spread among 5 people, yet Reason S completely ignores this difference. If Reason S truly cared about pain-qua-how-it-feels, it cannot ignore this difference.
If you mean that it feels worse to any given person involved, yes it ignores the difference, but that’s clearly the point, so I don’t know what you’re doing here other than merely restating it and saying “I don’t agree.”
On the other hand, you do not care how many people are in pain, and you do not care how much pain someone experiences so long as there is someone else who is in more pain, so if anyone’s got to figure out whether or not they “care” enough it’s you.
Have we hit bedrock?
You’ve pretty much been repeating yourself for the past several weeks, so, sure.
Because you told me that it’s the same amount of pain as five minor toothaches and you also told me that each minor toothache is 1 base unit of pain.
Where in supposition or the line of reasoning that I laid out earlier (i.e. P1) through to P5)) did I say that 1 major headache involves the same amount of pain as 5 minor toothaches?
I attributed that line of reasoning to you because I thought that was how you would get to C) from the supposition that 5 minor toothaches had by one person is experientially just as bad as 1 major toothache had by one person.
But you then denied that that line of reasoning represents your line of reasoning. Specifically, you denied that P1) is the basis for asserting P2). When I asked you what is your basis for P2), you assert that I told you that 1 major headache involves the same amount of pain as five minor toothaches. But where did I say this?
In any case, it would certainly help if you described your actual step by step reasoning from the supposition to C), since, apparently, I got it wrong.
If you mean that it feels worse to any given person involved, yes it ignores the difference, but that’s clearly the point, so I don’t know what you’re doing here other than merely restating it and saying “I don’t agree.”
I’m not merely restating the fact that Reason S ignores this difference. I am restating it as part of a further argument against your sense of “involves more pain than” or “involves the same amount of pain as”. The argument in essence goes:
P1) Your sense relies on Reason S
P2) Reason S does not care about pain-qua-how-it-feels (because it ignores the above stated difference).
P3) We take pain to matter because of how it feels.
C) Therefore, your sense is not in harmony with why pain matters (or at least why we take pain to matter).
I had to restate that Reason S ignores this difference as my support for P2, so it was not merely stated.
On the other hand, you do not care how many people are in pain, and you do not care how much pain someone experiences so long as there is someone else who is in more pain, so if anyone’s got to figure out whether or not they “care” enough it’s you.
Both accusations are problematic.
The first accusation is not entirely true. I don’t care about how many people are in pain only in situations where I have to choose between helping, say, Amy and Susie or just Bob (i.e. situations where a person in the minority party does not overlap with anyone in the majority party). However, I would care about how many people are in pain in situations where I have to choose between helping, say, Amy and Susie or just Amy (i.e. situations where the minority party is a mere subset of the majority party). This is due to the strict pareto principle which would make Amy and Susie each suffering morally worse than just Amy suffering, but would not make Amy and Susie suffering morally worse than Bob suffering. I don’t want to get into this at this point because it’s not very relevant to our discussion. Suffice it to say that it’s not entirely true that I don’t care about how many people are in pain.
The second accusation is plain false. As I made clear in my response to Objection 2 in my post, I think who suffers matters. As a result, if I could either save one person from suffering some pain or another person from suffering a slightly less pain, I would give each person a chance of being saved in proportion to how much each has to suffer. This is what I think I should do. Ironically, your second accusation against me is precisely true of what you stand for.
You’ve pretty much been repeating yourself for the past several weeks, so, sure.
In my past few replies, I have:
1) Outlined in explicit terms a line of reasoning that got from the supposition to C), which I attributed to you.
2) Highlighted that that line of reasoning appealed to Reason S.
3) On that basis, argued that your sense of “involves the same amount of pain as” goes against the spirit of why pain matters.
If that comes across to you as “just repeating myself for the past several weeks”, then I can only think that you aren’t putting enough effort into trying to understand what I’m saying.
Hey kbog, if you don’t mind, let’s ignore my example with the 5000 pains because I think my argument can more clearly be made in terms of my toothache example since I have already laid a foundation for it. Let me restate that foundation and then state my argument in terms of my toothache example. Thanks for bearing with me.
The foundation:
Suppose 5 minor toothaches had by one person is experientially just as bad as 1 major toothache had by one person.
Given the supposition, you would claim: 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people involves the same amount of pain as 1 major toothache had by one person.
Let me explain what I think is your reasoning step by step:
P1) 5 minor toothaches had by one person and 1 major toothache had by one person give rise to two different what-it’s-likes that are nevertheless experientially JUST AS BAD. (By above supposition) (The two different what-it’s-likes are: the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-toothaches and the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-major-toothache.)
P2) Therefore, we are entitled to say that 5 minor toothaches had by one person is equivalent to 1 major toothache had by one person. (By P1)
P3) 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is 5 minor toothaches, just as 5 minor toothaches had by one person is 5 minor toothaches, so there is the same quantity of minor toothaches (or same quantity of base units of pain) in both cases. (Self-evident)
P4) Therefore, we are entitled to say that 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 5 minor toothaches had by one person. (By P4)
P5) Therefore, we are entitled to claim that 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 1 major toothache had by one person. (By P2 and P4)
C) Therefore, 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people involves the same amount of pain as 1 major toothache had by one person. (By P5)
As the illustrated reasoning shows, 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people involves the same amount of pain as 1 major toothache had by one person (i.e. C) only if 5 minor toothaches had by ONE person is equivalent to 1 major toothache (i.e. P2). You agree with this.
Moreover, as the illustrated reasoning also shows, the reason why 5 minor toothaches had by one person is equivalent to 1 major toothache (i.e. P2) is because they give rise to two different what-it’s-likes that are nevertheless experientially just as bad (i.e. P1). I presume you agree with this too. Call this reason “Reason E”, E for “experientially just as bad”)
Furthermore, as the illustrated reasoning shows, the reason why 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 5 minor toothache had by one person is DIFFERENT from the reason for why 5 minor headaches had by one person is equivalent to 1 major toothache had by one person. That is, 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 5 minor toothaches had by one person (i.e. P4) because they share the same quantity of base units of pain, namely 5, irrespective of how the 5 base units of pain are spread (i.e. P3), and NOT because they give rise to two what-it’s-likes that are experientially just as bad (as they clearly don’t). Call this reason (i.e. P3) “Reason S”, S for “same quantity of base units of pains”
Argument:
So there are these two different types of reasons underlying your equivalence claims (I will use “=” to signify “is equivalent to”:
5 MiTs/5 people = 5 MiTs/1 person = 1 MaT/1 person
........................(Reason S).................(Reason E).......................…
Now, never mind the transitivity problem that Reasons S and E create for your reasoning. Indeed, that’s not the problem I want to raise for your sense of “involves more pain.”
The problem with your sense of “involves more pain” is that it admits of Reason S as a basis for saying X involves more pain than Y. But Reason S, unlike Reason E, is against the spirit of why we take pain to matter. We take pain to matter because of the badness of how it feels, as you rightly claim. But Reason S doesn’t give a crap about how bad the pains on the two sides of the equation FEEL; it doesn’t care that 5 MiTs/1 person constitutes a pain that feels a whole lot worse than any anything on the other side of the equation. It just cares about how many base units of pain there are on each side. And, obviously, more base units of pain does not mean there is experientially worse pain precisely because the base units of pain can be spread out among many different people.
This an interesting question. Perhaps the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-an-INFINITE-number-of-a-very-mild-sort-of-pain cannot be experientially worse than the what-it’s-like-of-suffering-one-instance-of-third-degree-burns. If so, then I would think that 1 third-degree burn/1 person is morally worse than infinite mild pains/1 person. In any case, I don’t think what I think here is relevant to my argument against your utilitarian sense of “involves more pain than”.
No, both equivalencies are justified by the fact that they involve the same amount of base units of pain.
Sure it does. The presence of pain is equivalent to feeling bad. Feeling bad is precisely what is at stake here, and all that I care about.
Yes, that’s what I meant when I said “that’s a question of how we evaluate and represent an individual’s well-being, not a question of interpersonal comparison and aggregation.”
So you’re saying that just as 5 MiTs/5 people is equivalent to 5 MiTs/1 person because both sides involve the same amount of base units of pain, 5 MiTs/1 person is equivalent to 1 MaT/1 person because both sides involve the same amount of base units of pain (and not because both sides give rise to what-it’s-likes that are experientially just as bad).
My question to you then is this: On what basis are you able to say that 1 MaT/1 person involves 5 base units of pain?
Reason S cares about the amount of base units of pain there are because pain feels bad, but in my opinion, that doesn’t sufficiently show that it cares about pain-qua-how-it-feels. It doesn’t sufficiently show that it cares about pain-qua-how-it-feels because 5 base units of pain all experienced by one person feels a whole heck of a lot worse than anything felt when 5 base units of pain are spread among 5 people, yet Reason S completely ignores this difference. If Reason S truly cared about pain-qua-how-it-feels, it cannot ignore this difference.
I understand where you’re coming from though. You hold that Reason S cares about the quantity of base units of pain precisely because pain feels bad, and that this fact alone sufficiently shows that Reason S is in harmony with the fact that we take pain to matter because of how it feels (i.e. that Reason S cares about pain-qua-how-it-feels).
However, given what I just said, I think this fact alone is too weak to show that Reason S is in harmony with the fact that we take pain to matter because of how it feels. So I believe my objection stands.
Have we hit bedrock?
Because you told me that it’s the same amount of pain as five minor toothaches and you also told me that each minor toothache is 1 base unit of pain.
If you mean that it feels worse to any given person involved, yes it ignores the difference, but that’s clearly the point, so I don’t know what you’re doing here other than merely restating it and saying “I don’t agree.”
On the other hand, you do not care how many people are in pain, and you do not care how much pain someone experiences so long as there is someone else who is in more pain, so if anyone’s got to figure out whether or not they “care” enough it’s you.
You’ve pretty much been repeating yourself for the past several weeks, so, sure.
Where in supposition or the line of reasoning that I laid out earlier (i.e. P1) through to P5)) did I say that 1 major headache involves the same amount of pain as 5 minor toothaches?
I attributed that line of reasoning to you because I thought that was how you would get to C) from the supposition that 5 minor toothaches had by one person is experientially just as bad as 1 major toothache had by one person.
But you then denied that that line of reasoning represents your line of reasoning. Specifically, you denied that P1) is the basis for asserting P2). When I asked you what is your basis for P2), you assert that I told you that 1 major headache involves the same amount of pain as five minor toothaches. But where did I say this?
In any case, it would certainly help if you described your actual step by step reasoning from the supposition to C), since, apparently, I got it wrong.
I’m not merely restating the fact that Reason S ignores this difference. I am restating it as part of a further argument against your sense of “involves more pain than” or “involves the same amount of pain as”. The argument in essence goes: P1) Your sense relies on Reason S P2) Reason S does not care about pain-qua-how-it-feels (because it ignores the above stated difference). P3) We take pain to matter because of how it feels. C) Therefore, your sense is not in harmony with why pain matters (or at least why we take pain to matter).
I had to restate that Reason S ignores this difference as my support for P2, so it was not merely stated.
Both accusations are problematic.
The first accusation is not entirely true. I don’t care about how many people are in pain only in situations where I have to choose between helping, say, Amy and Susie or just Bob (i.e. situations where a person in the minority party does not overlap with anyone in the majority party). However, I would care about how many people are in pain in situations where I have to choose between helping, say, Amy and Susie or just Amy (i.e. situations where the minority party is a mere subset of the majority party). This is due to the strict pareto principle which would make Amy and Susie each suffering morally worse than just Amy suffering, but would not make Amy and Susie suffering morally worse than Bob suffering. I don’t want to get into this at this point because it’s not very relevant to our discussion. Suffice it to say that it’s not entirely true that I don’t care about how many people are in pain.
The second accusation is plain false. As I made clear in my response to Objection 2 in my post, I think who suffers matters. As a result, if I could either save one person from suffering some pain or another person from suffering a slightly less pain, I would give each person a chance of being saved in proportion to how much each has to suffer. This is what I think I should do. Ironically, your second accusation against me is precisely true of what you stand for.
In my past few replies, I have:
1) Outlined in explicit terms a line of reasoning that got from the supposition to C), which I attributed to you.
2) Highlighted that that line of reasoning appealed to Reason S.
3) On that basis, argued that your sense of “involves the same amount of pain as” goes against the spirit of why pain matters.
If that comes across to you as “just repeating myself for the past several weeks”, then I can only think that you aren’t putting enough effort into trying to understand what I’m saying.