Thanks for this, I think you articulate your point well, and I understand what you’re saying.
It seems that we disagree, here:
It seems to me that the world would be a much better place if, whenever someone refused to accept either horn of a moral or political dilemma, they were expected to provide an explicit answer to the question “What would you do instead?”
My point is exactly that I don’t think that a world with a very strong version of this norm is necessarily better. Of course, I agree that it is best if you can propose a feasible alternative and I think it’s perfectly reasonable to ask for that. But I don’t think that having an alternative solution should always be a requirement for pointing out that both horns of a dilemma are unacceptable in an absolute sense.
Sometimes, the very act of critiquing both ‘horns’ is what prompts us to find a third way, meaning that such a critique has a longer-term value, even in the absence of a provided short-term solution. Consequently, I think there’s a downside to having too high of a bar for critiquing the default set of options.
To be clear, I think we both need the more ‘activist’ approach of rejecting options that don’t meet certain standards, as well as the more ‘incrementalist’ approach of maximising on the margin. There’s a role for both, and I think that Farmer did a great job at the former, while much of the effective altruism movement has done a great job at the latter. Hence why I found it valuable to learn about his work.
the very act of critiquing both ‘horns’ is what prompts us to find a third way, meaning that such a critique has a longer-term value, even in the absence of a provided short-term solution.
Yeah, this seems plausible to me, and is something I hadn’t fully appreciated when I wrote my previous comment.
As a side note, I’m not familiar with Farmer’s work, but this exchange (and Gavin’s post) has motivated me to read Mountains Beyond Mountains.
I appreciate hearing that and I’ve appreciated this brief exchange.
And I’m glad to hear that you’re giving the book a try. I expect that you will disagree with some of Farmer’s approaches – as I did – but I hope you will enjoy it nonetheless.
In general, I think the more ‘activist’ approach can be especially useful for (1) arguing, normatively, for what kind of world we want to be in and (2) prompting people to think harder about alternative ways of getting there – this is especially useful if some stakeholders haven’t fully appreciated how bad existing options are for certain parties. Note that neither of these ways to contribute requires concrete solutions to create some value.
Also, to add:
To be clear, I think we both need the more ‘activist’ approach of rejecting options that don’t meet certain standards, as well as the more ‘incrementalist’ approach of maximising on the margin.
For example, we both need advocates to argue that it’s outrageous and unacceptable how the scarcity funds allocated towards global poverty leaves so many without enough, as well as GiveWell-style optimisers to figure out how to do the most with what we currently have.
In a nutshell: Maximise subject to given constraints, and push to relax those constraints.
Thanks for this, I think you articulate your point well, and I understand what you’re saying.
It seems that we disagree, here:
My point is exactly that I don’t think that a world with a very strong version of this norm is necessarily better. Of course, I agree that it is best if you can propose a feasible alternative and I think it’s perfectly reasonable to ask for that. But I don’t think that having an alternative solution should always be a requirement for pointing out that both horns of a dilemma are unacceptable in an absolute sense.
Sometimes, the very act of critiquing both ‘horns’ is what prompts us to find a third way, meaning that such a critique has a longer-term value, even in the absence of a provided short-term solution. Consequently, I think there’s a downside to having too high of a bar for critiquing the default set of options.
To be clear, I think we both need the more ‘activist’ approach of rejecting options that don’t meet certain standards, as well as the more ‘incrementalist’ approach of maximising on the margin. There’s a role for both, and I think that Farmer did a great job at the former, while much of the effective altruism movement has done a great job at the latter. Hence why I found it valuable to learn about his work.
Thanks for your reply.
Yeah, this seems plausible to me, and is something I hadn’t fully appreciated when I wrote my previous comment.
As a side note, I’m not familiar with Farmer’s work, but this exchange (and Gavin’s post) has motivated me to read Mountains Beyond Mountains.
I appreciate hearing that and I’ve appreciated this brief exchange.
And I’m glad to hear that you’re giving the book a try. I expect that you will disagree with some of Farmer’s approaches – as I did – but I hope you will enjoy it nonetheless.
In general, I think the more ‘activist’ approach can be especially useful for (1) arguing, normatively, for what kind of world we want to be in and (2) prompting people to think harder about alternative ways of getting there – this is especially useful if some stakeholders haven’t fully appreciated how bad existing options are for certain parties. Note that neither of these ways to contribute requires concrete solutions to create some value.
Also, to add:
For example, we both need advocates to argue that it’s outrageous and unacceptable how the scarcity funds allocated towards global poverty leaves so many without enough, as well as GiveWell-style optimisers to figure out how to do the most with what we currently have.
In a nutshell: Maximise subject to given constraints, and push to relax those constraints.