Howie from 80k here. Thanks for all your thoughts in the original post as well as this thread. Just wanted to make a quick factual correction. It looks like the page you’re quoting, which we published in 2017, has fallen a bit out of date—at least for a subset of EA organisations.
At the most competitive EA orgs, entry level salaries in high-cost-of-living areas now typically range from ~$50k to ~$80k. The most competitive positions at those orgs typically pay at the high end of that range. That said, pay may vary outside of that range for specific positions and at other EA organisations. I’ll update the page to clarify later today.
For what it’s worth, I think salaries at those organisations match or exceed the salaries for similar roles at comparable nonprofits. As I think has been pointed out elsewhere in the comments, that may or may not be the right ‘market rate’ to look at depending on whether you think these jobs offer disproportionate non-financial benefits.
Using one industry I personally happen to know well as a comparison, I think entry level salaries for research analysts at these organisations tend to be equal to or higher than salaries for economics research assistants at places like the Federal Reserve or top think tanks in DC.
Using one industry I personally happen to know well as a comparison, I think entry level salaries for research analysts at these organisations tend to be equal to or higher than salaries for economics research assistants at places like the Federal Reserve or top think tanks in DC.
Does this account for cost-of-living differences? It costs ~75% more to live in SF than DC…
Oh, sorry. DC was just meant to apply to the think tanks. I was comparing to Fed jobs in SF and NY to try to account for this.
The 75% adjustment seems too high to me—at least for someone who’s renting, as most entry level staff will be in both of those cities. The calculator you used assumed home ownership. Here’s a cost of living calculator that claims the difference is more like 20% for renters (although nonproprietary cost of living data tends to generally be iffy in my experience). Anecdotally, I’ve lived in both cities and did not experience close to a 75% difference.
If you did use the 75% number, some DC think tank RAs would come out ahead but I don’t have a precise enough sense of the range of salaries to know how many. If you use the 20% adjustment, I think my original claim will still hold.
Thanks Howie. Good catch on the rent vs. own distinction, agree renting is the right reference point for junior hires. Seems like for the highest paying EA orgs, there may not be a wage gap for junior roles relative to comparable nonprofits (which I find pleasantly surprising), through presumably there’s still a large gap relative to the private sector.
Big picture, I still think EA salaries (adjusted for cost of living) are still low enough that there will be talent shortages, especially for more senior roles. It doesn’t help that many EA jobs and a very disproportionate number of the highest paying ones are located in extremely high cost of living locations. Even if SF is “only” 20% more expensive than DC (and for senior roles I’d argue for a higher adjustment), DC is an expensive city too.
Anecdotally, I moved from SF ~5 years ago and cost of living was a major factor (but not the only). My wife and I have estimated that roughly our Bay Area friends have moved elsewhere or plan to soon, and cost of living is almost always a huge factor. I heard a while back that the cost of renting a U-Haul was something like 3x higher to go from SF to Salt Lake City(?) than the reverse trip because way more people want to move out of the Bay than want to move to it. Against that backdrop, I don’t think paying what comparable non-profits do is going to be sufficient to attract the talent pool we want. There are a lot of important EA orgs in the Bay, and I’d like them to be able to hire out of the pool of people who want to buy a house and aren’t independently wealthy.
FYI, I noticed that page also had some outdated info on TLYCS that only went through 2016. You can find updated numbers/charts in TLYCS’s 2018 annual report.
Thanks for clearing that up and updating the website!
At the most competitive EA orgs, entry level salaries in high-cost-of-living areas now typically range from ~$50k to ~$80k. The most competitive positions at those orgs typically pay at the high end of that range. That said, pay may vary outside of that range for specific positions and at other EA organisations. I’ll update the page to clarify later today.
My sense is there’s quite a big gap between pay at a handful of “the most competitive EA orgs” and other EA orgs, and that there’s quite a lot of variation across orgs, causes, geographies, etc. Does 80K have a good handle on the size of these differences and/or would it be open getting more information via the annual talent survey as suggested in OP? (I’m glad to see 80K is open to adding questions to this survey, but as I mentioned elsewhere I think there are serious problems with the new question 80K has proposed.)
Hi Jon,
Howie from 80k here. Thanks for all your thoughts in the original post as well as this thread. Just wanted to make a quick factual correction. It looks like the page you’re quoting, which we published in 2017, has fallen a bit out of date—at least for a subset of EA organisations.
At the most competitive EA orgs, entry level salaries in high-cost-of-living areas now typically range from ~$50k to ~$80k. The most competitive positions at those orgs typically pay at the high end of that range. That said, pay may vary outside of that range for specific positions and at other EA organisations. I’ll update the page to clarify later today.
For what it’s worth, I think salaries at those organisations match or exceed the salaries for similar roles at comparable nonprofits. As I think has been pointed out elsewhere in the comments, that may or may not be the right ‘market rate’ to look at depending on whether you think these jobs offer disproportionate non-financial benefits.
Using one industry I personally happen to know well as a comparison, I think entry level salaries for research analysts at these organisations tend to be equal to or higher than salaries for economics research assistants at places like the Federal Reserve or top think tanks in DC.
Does this account for cost-of-living differences? It costs ~75% more to live in SF than DC…
Oh, sorry. DC was just meant to apply to the think tanks. I was comparing to Fed jobs in SF and NY to try to account for this.
The 75% adjustment seems too high to me—at least for someone who’s renting, as most entry level staff will be in both of those cities. The calculator you used assumed home ownership. Here’s a cost of living calculator that claims the difference is more like 20% for renters (although nonproprietary cost of living data tends to generally be iffy in my experience). Anecdotally, I’ve lived in both cities and did not experience close to a 75% difference.
If you did use the 75% number, some DC think tank RAs would come out ahead but I don’t have a precise enough sense of the range of salaries to know how many. If you use the 20% adjustment, I think my original claim will still hold.
Thanks Howie. Good catch on the rent vs. own distinction, agree renting is the right reference point for junior hires. Seems like for the highest paying EA orgs, there may not be a wage gap for junior roles relative to comparable nonprofits (which I find pleasantly surprising), through presumably there’s still a large gap relative to the private sector.
Big picture, I still think EA salaries (adjusted for cost of living) are still low enough that there will be talent shortages, especially for more senior roles. It doesn’t help that many EA jobs and a very disproportionate number of the highest paying ones are located in extremely high cost of living locations. Even if SF is “only” 20% more expensive than DC (and for senior roles I’d argue for a higher adjustment), DC is an expensive city too.
Anecdotally, I moved from SF ~5 years ago and cost of living was a major factor (but not the only). My wife and I have estimated that roughly our Bay Area friends have moved elsewhere or plan to soon, and cost of living is almost always a huge factor. I heard a while back that the cost of renting a U-Haul was something like 3x higher to go from SF to Salt Lake City(?) than the reverse trip because way more people want to move out of the Bay than want to move to it. Against that backdrop, I don’t think paying what comparable non-profits do is going to be sufficient to attract the talent pool we want. There are a lot of important EA orgs in the Bay, and I’d like them to be able to hire out of the pool of people who want to buy a house and aren’t independently wealthy.
FYI, I noticed that page also had some outdated info on TLYCS that only went through 2016. You can find updated numbers/charts in TLYCS’s 2018 annual report.
Hi Howie,
Thanks for clearing that up and updating the website!
My sense is there’s quite a big gap between pay at a handful of “the most competitive EA orgs” and other EA orgs, and that there’s quite a lot of variation across orgs, causes, geographies, etc. Does 80K have a good handle on the size of these differences and/or would it be open getting more information via the annual talent survey as suggested in OP? (I’m glad to see 80K is open to adding questions to this survey, but as I mentioned elsewhere I think there are serious problems with the new question 80K has proposed.)