″...we have evidence that welfare reforms lead to more welfare reforms, which might suggest someday they will get us to something close to animal rights, but I think Gary Francione’s historical argument that we have had welfare reforms for two centuries without significant actual improvements is a bit stronger....”
My point is that welfare reforms have led not only to more welfare reforms, but prohibitions as well. Even if we disqualify bans on battery cages, veal crates, and gestation crates as prohibitions, there are still bans on fur farming and cosmetics testing. There are also what might be considered proto-rights in the Five Freedoms.
″...many movements historically have come to a similar conclusion that seeking a more dramatic shift (abolition or desegregation) was more valuable than improved conditions (slavery reform or improved segregated black schools).”
I think the success of incrementalist vs. abolitionist strategies is highly context dependent. A society may simply not be ready to even consider the abolition of a particular institution. This seems to have been the case with abolitionist anti-vivisectionism.
And there is bias in looking at cases like slavery and civil rights in which dramatic shifts were actually achieved. Of course it looks, in retrospect, like pursuing a dramatic shift was the best choice! But history is littered with people whose calls for dramatic change were not realized: socialists, libertarians, anarchists, fascists, adherents of all religions, radical environmentalists, anti-globalizationists, anti-nuclearists, pacifists, Bernie Bros, and 19th century anti-vivisectionists. Arguably, however, each of these groups has been able to advance some of their goals through small changes.
My point is not to advocate for welfarism over abolitionism, but to say we can’t predict what will work in a given time and place, and therefore we should diversify our strategic portfolio. And I do think recognizing that welfarism does not seem to have prevented progress towards abolition is especially important in the case of developing countries, which seem particularly far from being receptive to animal liberation, but where animal welfare reforms could reduce the suffering of a lot of animals in the meantime.
All good points, thanks. With the prohibitions on fur and cosmetic testing, do you know if they were preceded by welfare reforms in those respective industries or just in other industries? That could also be evidence for welfare reform leading to abolition but I don’t know that it was the case. It seems likely to me that the effect of welfare reforms on abolition is likely zero, neither positive nor negative based on this evidence.
Those are all good points about potential biases. Though note that incrementalism and welfarist are not the same. Abolitionists achieved geographical increments in city and state abolition and personal increments in manumission.
I haven’t seen much on welfare reforms in these industries in particular. In the 90s Sweden required that foxes on fur farms be able to express their natural behaviors, but this made fur farming economically unviable and it ended altogether...so I’m not sure what that tells us. Other than that, animals used in fur farming and cosmetics testing are/were subject to general EU animal welfare laws, and laws concerning farm and experimental animals, respectively.
I think welfare having no effect on abolition is a reasonable conclusion. I just want to argue that it isn’t obviously counterproductive on the basis of this historical evidence.
Thanks for the comments!
″...we have evidence that welfare reforms lead to more welfare reforms, which might suggest someday they will get us to something close to animal rights, but I think Gary Francione’s historical argument that we have had welfare reforms for two centuries without significant actual improvements is a bit stronger....”
My point is that welfare reforms have led not only to more welfare reforms, but prohibitions as well. Even if we disqualify bans on battery cages, veal crates, and gestation crates as prohibitions, there are still bans on fur farming and cosmetics testing. There are also what might be considered proto-rights in the Five Freedoms.
″...many movements historically have come to a similar conclusion that seeking a more dramatic shift (abolition or desegregation) was more valuable than improved conditions (slavery reform or improved segregated black schools).”
I think the success of incrementalist vs. abolitionist strategies is highly context dependent. A society may simply not be ready to even consider the abolition of a particular institution. This seems to have been the case with abolitionist anti-vivisectionism.
And there is bias in looking at cases like slavery and civil rights in which dramatic shifts were actually achieved. Of course it looks, in retrospect, like pursuing a dramatic shift was the best choice! But history is littered with people whose calls for dramatic change were not realized: socialists, libertarians, anarchists, fascists, adherents of all religions, radical environmentalists, anti-globalizationists, anti-nuclearists, pacifists, Bernie Bros, and 19th century anti-vivisectionists. Arguably, however, each of these groups has been able to advance some of their goals through small changes.
My point is not to advocate for welfarism over abolitionism, but to say we can’t predict what will work in a given time and place, and therefore we should diversify our strategic portfolio. And I do think recognizing that welfarism does not seem to have prevented progress towards abolition is especially important in the case of developing countries, which seem particularly far from being receptive to animal liberation, but where animal welfare reforms could reduce the suffering of a lot of animals in the meantime.
All good points, thanks. With the prohibitions on fur and cosmetic testing, do you know if they were preceded by welfare reforms in those respective industries or just in other industries? That could also be evidence for welfare reform leading to abolition but I don’t know that it was the case. It seems likely to me that the effect of welfare reforms on abolition is likely zero, neither positive nor negative based on this evidence.
Those are all good points about potential biases. Though note that incrementalism and welfarist are not the same. Abolitionists achieved geographical increments in city and state abolition and personal increments in manumission.
I haven’t seen much on welfare reforms in these industries in particular. In the 90s Sweden required that foxes on fur farms be able to express their natural behaviors, but this made fur farming economically unviable and it ended altogether...so I’m not sure what that tells us. Other than that, animals used in fur farming and cosmetics testing are/were subject to general EU animal welfare laws, and laws concerning farm and experimental animals, respectively.
I think welfare having no effect on abolition is a reasonable conclusion. I just want to argue that it isn’t obviously counterproductive on the basis of this historical evidence.