I’m very sympathetic to this but also really resonate with
The purpose of the effective altruism community is not to make effective altruists happy or to get them relationships, and by the same token the purpose of my personal life is not to improve the health or public relations of the effective altruism movement.
Can you share more on your view as to the distinction between “the purpose of my personal life is not to improve the health of EA” versus “I have a personal responsibility to not conduct my personal life in a way that systematically/repeatedly harms the EA community.” The first sentence, at least in a very literal reading, seems non-controversial to me. The second sentence seems to be where people run into trouble and disagreement, and what proposals like this once are trying to enact. Are you also disagreeing with this second statement? If so, could you share more? Do people generally agree with the second statement, but the disagreement comes from what sorts of behaviors are “systematically harmful”?
Or is there a third position that I’m missing?
I also want to note that, while I don’t think this is severe or anything, I find it concerning that a community health representative is ostensibly endorsing a post which contains an image/meme trivializing a discussion around what norms to set to make EA a less destructive space for women. Not that you can’t endorse any ideas expressed in the post, but without a caveat it makes me wonder, does the community health team share that trivializing view towards these discussions?
(This might be too harsh. But sharing my gut level reaction)
Yeah, happy to clarify; to reiterate I’m very sympathetic to what Will said about how EA isn’t about making sure you have the personal life you want to have. What I’m sympathetic to in the sentence I quoted (while not necessarily agreeing with the whole article, which I didn’t intend to imply by quoting the sentence) was the healthiness of feeling a certain protectiveness over your personal life. While I intended my comment in a personal capacity (and should have said so), it also seems to me to be a matter of community health that people (including when I think particularly of women’s experiences) are able to set boundaries around how much EA takes over their lives, ends up taking away things that are nourishing or important to them, or makes unsustainable demands.
I think you’re right that the sentence doesn’t really, on its own, help us figure out what the right limits are on what’s appropriate and what’s not, and where the “this is personal” line can get drawn. I’m pretty open to a wide range of possible norms, including those that ask for people to act quite differently in their personal life than they otherwise would because it’s better for the world, and I’m quite up for figuring out the right consequentialist view on it (I personally take on sacrifices in that direction, and think it’s appropriate that many others do as well). I read Ozy as agreeing with this, given their paragraph here[1].
I do think there is some tension here. I take it as part of the Community Health team’s job to navigate that tension and figure out what overall helps the community be a place where people can flourish and do their best work. Sometimes this isn’t hard—harassment and assault and abuse of power and so on aren’t categorically out of our remit just because they sometimes happen in people’s personal lives—and sometimes it’s more complicated.
Not the least bit my intention to trivialize the discussion, and the team cares a tremendous amount about figuring these things out well.
“I of course believe that effective altruists should follow common-sense sexual ethics, which includes not hitting on people in your chain of command, avoiding any pressure into sex, and being careful about relationships with coworkers, with people much younger than you, and people you have power over. I support a norm of no cuddle piles or flirting at effective altruist retreats, meetups, events, or afterparties; effective altruism can certainly set the norms at official EA events, and it makes sense to me that these should be asexual spaces. I agree that certain people, by virtue of their position, grant the effective altruism movement more say in their romantic lives. A grantmaker, a charity founder or executive, or a community organizer should take great care to make sure they don’t have sex with anyone they might wind up with power over.)”
Hm, I think I did not communicate my concern clearly. The concern I have is not with the CH lead sympathizing with the text of the post. At least in a personal capacity, I agree that the text of the post adds to the conversation is a useful way. I also understand that women are not all in agreement on these points.
The concern I have is the implicit endorsement of the meme shared at the top of the post. Not the text of the post. It’s one thing for community members to share these sorts of trivializing memes that mock the position they disagree with. But when the CH lead shares a post that opens with that meme, I wonder, is that how you see that side of the conversation?
I’m not saying the meme at the top of the post means you can’t link to it, quote it, reference it. But I’d want some caveat.
Maybe my broader point is this is clearly an emotionally intense topic, that touches on many’s personal experiences. And as CH lead, many people are looking to you right now, and a lot is riding on it. You have substantial power, and individually us as community members have much less so. So it feels important, at least to me, that I feel this issue is being handled sensitively, with a lot of empathy and understanding. It’s fine for you to express sympathy for different positions, and I think it’s valuable to transparently see where you are at. But many people have considered this meme to be trivializing and mocking. I think generally memes making fun of an argument they’re disagreeing with will have that effect. So seeing you tacitly endorse mocking/trivializing content is upsetting.
I strongly disagree that the meme or post trivializes that discussion. If you read the post, you’ll see that Ozy (the writer) doesn’t think the discussion is silly, they just object to people dragging polyamory into it and making unreasonable demands. (Fwiw I’m a woman and Ozy is non-binary, so we are both part of the constituency that these discussions are supposed to help).
The meme is absolutely trivializing. It is mocking the opposite side of the discussion. The text of the post is not trivializing. Agreeing with the meme does not mean the meme is not trivializing.
I’m very sympathetic to this but also really resonate with
From this piece.
Can you share more on your view as to the distinction between “the purpose of my personal life is not to improve the health of EA” versus “I have a personal responsibility to not conduct my personal life in a way that systematically/repeatedly harms the EA community.” The first sentence, at least in a very literal reading, seems non-controversial to me. The second sentence seems to be where people run into trouble and disagreement, and what proposals like this once are trying to enact. Are you also disagreeing with this second statement? If so, could you share more? Do people generally agree with the second statement, but the disagreement comes from what sorts of behaviors are “systematically harmful”?
Or is there a third position that I’m missing?
I also want to note that, while I don’t think this is severe or anything, I find it concerning that a community health representative is ostensibly endorsing a post which contains an image/meme trivializing a discussion around what norms to set to make EA a less destructive space for women. Not that you can’t endorse any ideas expressed in the post, but without a caveat it makes me wonder, does the community health team share that trivializing view towards these discussions?
(This might be too harsh. But sharing my gut level reaction)
Yeah, happy to clarify; to reiterate I’m very sympathetic to what Will said about how EA isn’t about making sure you have the personal life you want to have. What I’m sympathetic to in the sentence I quoted (while not necessarily agreeing with the whole article, which I didn’t intend to imply by quoting the sentence) was the healthiness of feeling a certain protectiveness over your personal life. While I intended my comment in a personal capacity (and should have said so), it also seems to me to be a matter of community health that people (including when I think particularly of women’s experiences) are able to set boundaries around how much EA takes over their lives, ends up taking away things that are nourishing or important to them, or makes unsustainable demands.
I think you’re right that the sentence doesn’t really, on its own, help us figure out what the right limits are on what’s appropriate and what’s not, and where the “this is personal” line can get drawn. I’m pretty open to a wide range of possible norms, including those that ask for people to act quite differently in their personal life than they otherwise would because it’s better for the world, and I’m quite up for figuring out the right consequentialist view on it (I personally take on sacrifices in that direction, and think it’s appropriate that many others do as well). I read Ozy as agreeing with this, given their paragraph here[1].
I do think there is some tension here. I take it as part of the Community Health team’s job to navigate that tension and figure out what overall helps the community be a place where people can flourish and do their best work. Sometimes this isn’t hard—harassment and assault and abuse of power and so on aren’t categorically out of our remit just because they sometimes happen in people’s personal lives—and sometimes it’s more complicated.
Not the least bit my intention to trivialize the discussion, and the team cares a tremendous amount about figuring these things out well.
“I of course believe that effective altruists should follow common-sense sexual ethics, which includes not hitting on people in your chain of command, avoiding any pressure into sex, and being careful about relationships with coworkers, with people much younger than you, and people you have power over. I support a norm of no cuddle piles or flirting at effective altruist retreats, meetups, events, or afterparties; effective altruism can certainly set the norms at official EA events, and it makes sense to me that these should be asexual spaces. I agree that certain people, by virtue of their position, grant the effective altruism movement more say in their romantic lives. A grantmaker, a charity founder or executive, or a community organizer should take great care to make sure they don’t have sex with anyone they might wind up with power over.)”
Hm, I think I did not communicate my concern clearly. The concern I have is not with the CH lead sympathizing with the text of the post. At least in a personal capacity, I agree that the text of the post adds to the conversation is a useful way. I also understand that women are not all in agreement on these points.
The concern I have is the implicit endorsement of the meme shared at the top of the post. Not the text of the post. It’s one thing for community members to share these sorts of trivializing memes that mock the position they disagree with. But when the CH lead shares a post that opens with that meme, I wonder, is that how you see that side of the conversation?
I’m not saying the meme at the top of the post means you can’t link to it, quote it, reference it. But I’d want some caveat.
Maybe my broader point is this is clearly an emotionally intense topic, that touches on many’s personal experiences. And as CH lead, many people are looking to you right now, and a lot is riding on it. You have substantial power, and individually us as community members have much less so. So it feels important, at least to me, that I feel this issue is being handled sensitively, with a lot of empathy and understanding. It’s fine for you to express sympathy for different positions, and I think it’s valuable to transparently see where you are at. But many people have considered this meme to be trivializing and mocking. I think generally memes making fun of an argument they’re disagreeing with will have that effect. So seeing you tacitly endorse mocking/trivializing content is upsetting.
I strongly disagree that the meme or post trivializes that discussion. If you read the post, you’ll see that Ozy (the writer) doesn’t think the discussion is silly, they just object to people dragging polyamory into it and making unreasonable demands. (Fwiw I’m a woman and Ozy is non-binary, so we are both part of the constituency that these discussions are supposed to help).
The meme is absolutely trivializing. It is mocking the opposite side of the discussion. The text of the post is not trivializing. Agreeing with the meme does not mean the meme is not trivializing.