TLDR: Agree with the risks, unsure if it’s better to restrict flirting for “x weeks” or for “however long there’s a power dynamic and/or vulnerability etc”
Thanks for sharing! Good to be reminded that this is a risk in any community (especially communities with both personal and professional relationships) and that others may have thought more about this and found better solutions.
This seems most risky in situations in which: - Alice is new to EA (still in the “orientation phase”) and looking for jobs. - Bob is an experienced (paid or volunteer) EA group organiser, could help Alice professionally (knows people who might have jobs for Alice etc) and also finds Alice attractive.
The risk seems to come from a perceived [1]or actual power dynamic, and this is exacerbated if one person is somehow “vulnerable”, like when they’re new to the community and don’t yet know the norms, or do not yet feel comfortable expressing boundaries or reaching out to other community members to ask for advice or support. @Severin Would you agree?
If that’s the case, would it make sense to discourage/ban flirting not for x amount of weeks but for however long there’s a (perceived or actual) power dynamic and/or “vulnerability”? This might then vary between one week (?) and forever.
Note that a perceived power difference is sufficient—if Alice thinks that Bob has the power to help or hinder her career (maybe because he mentioned he knows influential person x personally), that will make her hesitant to express boundaries when she receives unwanted attention from Bob, even if it’s not actually true.
Yep, the problem this particular rule tries to fix is that of perceived power imbalance and all the troubles that come with it.
It is an imperfect proxy for sure, but non-proxy rules like “No dating if there is a perceived power imbalance.” are very, very prone to tempt people into motivated reasoning. It can get very hard for humans to evaluate their power imbalance with Alice when oh damn are these freckles cute. False beliefs, from the inside, feel not like beliefs, but like the truth. Because of that, I wouldn’t trust anyone with power who would trust themselves with power.
Note also that while “Bob has power over Alice’s career” is a significant component of how power works in EA, power in humans has many more subtle nuances than factual access to resources. Even without explicit concerns like “If I don’t do what Bob wants, Bob will make my career progression harder.”, power is shiny and overpowering and does all kinds of funny things to our monkey brains. See for example how our brains automatically adjust what we consider good fashion choices to who we deem popular in our particular subcultural bubble, how we mold our habits by them, etc.
For a more crass example, the 20th century had its wealthy share of spiritual leaders with sex scandals. Though e.g. Osho had no power over his followers’ real-world careers, they worshipped him like a demigod. I think it goes without question that it would be if not impossible at least outstandingly difficult for him to have a truly consensual relationship with one of his followers. Because there’s no true “yes” without an easy “no”, and there’s no easy “no” if the prophet himself calls you to his quarters.
(Which is of course very sad and inconvenient for Osho and requirement to adhere to this rule might have turned him off guruing completely, because the list of documented 20th century female gurus is short.)
TLDR: Agree with the risks, unsure if it’s better to restrict flirting for “x weeks” or for “however long there’s a power dynamic and/or vulnerability etc”
Thanks for sharing! Good to be reminded that this is a risk in any community (especially communities with both personal and professional relationships) and that others may have thought more about this and found better solutions.
This seems most risky in situations in which:
- Alice is new to EA (still in the “orientation phase”) and looking for jobs.
- Bob is an experienced (paid or volunteer) EA group organiser, could help Alice professionally (knows people who might have jobs for Alice etc) and also finds Alice attractive.
The risk seems to come from a perceived [1]or actual power dynamic, and this is exacerbated if one person is somehow “vulnerable”, like when they’re new to the community and don’t yet know the norms, or do not yet feel comfortable expressing boundaries or reaching out to other community members to ask for advice or support. @Severin Would you agree?
If that’s the case, would it make sense to discourage/ban flirting not for x amount of weeks but for however long there’s a (perceived or actual) power dynamic and/or “vulnerability”? This might then vary between one week (?) and forever.
Note that a perceived power difference is sufficient—if Alice thinks that Bob has the power to help or hinder her career (maybe because he mentioned he knows influential person x personally), that will make her hesitant to express boundaries when she receives unwanted attention from Bob, even if it’s not actually true.
Yep, the problem this particular rule tries to fix is that of perceived power imbalance and all the troubles that come with it.
It is an imperfect proxy for sure, but non-proxy rules like “No dating if there is a perceived power imbalance.” are very, very prone to tempt people into motivated reasoning. It can get very hard for humans to evaluate their power imbalance with Alice when oh damn are these freckles cute. False beliefs, from the inside, feel not like beliefs, but like the truth. Because of that, I wouldn’t trust anyone with power who would trust themselves with power.
Note also that while “Bob has power over Alice’s career” is a significant component of how power works in EA, power in humans has many more subtle nuances than factual access to resources. Even without explicit concerns like “If I don’t do what Bob wants, Bob will make my career progression harder.”, power is shiny and overpowering and does all kinds of funny things to our monkey brains. See for example how our brains automatically adjust what we consider good fashion choices to who we deem popular in our particular subcultural bubble, how we mold our habits by them, etc.
For a more crass example, the 20th century had its wealthy share of spiritual leaders with sex scandals. Though e.g. Osho had no power over his followers’ real-world careers, they worshipped him like a demigod. I think it goes without question that it would be if not impossible at least outstandingly difficult for him to have a truly consensual relationship with one of his followers. Because there’s no true “yes” without an easy “no”, and there’s no easy “no” if the prophet himself calls you to his quarters.
(Which is of course very sad and inconvenient for Osho and requirement to adhere to this rule might have turned him off guruing completely, because the list of documented 20th century female gurus is short.)