I do think the models are the foundation of capability, and I have overstated my case, as I tend to do. What I want to say is that, I think model intelligence has largely steadily scaled, and that when a new application is developed (possible due to sufficient model advances), there is a sudden increase in experienced capability by consumers which feels like a giant leap in model development. That flood of new ability can be attributed to the application inasmuch as it opened the flood gates, but of course, the model is the thing functioning under the hood. To the point about hypey-discourse, I guess I’m just griping about the tendency to allow this optical illusion to influence people’s tone and assessment of progress.
It is hard to tell about the AISLE and Anthropic situation because of the very different size of the organizations and the lack of insider knowledge about either of them. To me, the requirement that AISLE replicate Anthropic’s findings in whole or in part feels like an unnecessary one to justify their claims. The way I take it is that AISLE’s activity has shown that with a proper system, it is already possible with publicly available models to do the sort of bug detection work that made headlines with the Mythos release. That is not to deny that Mythos + system is not an improvement over AISLE’s work. Assessing the nature of that improvement is hard for the aforementioned reasons about org scale differences and the general complexity of the thing being compared. It seems all parties agree that Mythos is a big step up in its ability to write exploits. I see no reason to challenge that.
I think its very hard to articulate critiques of hype, and that simultaneously I tend to write in an over-vehement and pugnacious way that makes me quite vulnerable to whatever arguments I would make against someone, so I kind of regret my engagement here, though I do think its true that there is a sort of ineffable tendency to amplify what feel-to-me to be likely reductionisms about model capabilities and how AI systems are engineered.
I took OP as trying to establish that the signal on progress to AGI is quite noisy, and expressing a frustration with narratives that feel too clean or reductionistic about progress. That’s highly subjective though. As you note, we probably can’t even really define what constitutes significant progress between us, though I suspect we could come to largely agree about the amount of progress made, just not what word to use to describe it.
I do think a fair test of my view point will be if in one year’s time we see a proliferation of products/services that do this sort deep bug-finding pipeline. My intuition on this is that cybersecurity is going to go through something similar to what software engineering did last year, driven by the rising tide of model quality in conjunction with a more acute set of innovations in the application layer.
[Edit: I don’t think my prediction proves anything actually, since it’s coming to pass could reflect many different underlying causalities]
I’m sorry you’ve said you regret your engagement, since I’ve found your comments helpful (the link to AISLE’s OpenSSL zero days has shifted my view on this a fair bit).
I do think the models are the foundation of capability, and I have overstated my case, as I tend to do. What I want to say is that, I think model intelligence has largely steadily scaled, and that when a new application is developed (possible due to sufficient model advances), there is a sudden increase in experienced capability by consumers which feels like a giant leap in model development. That flood of new ability can be attributed to the application inasmuch as it opened the flood gates, but of course, the model is the thing functioning under the hood. To the point about hypey-discourse, I guess I’m just griping about the tendency to allow this optical illusion to influence people’s tone and assessment of progress.
It is hard to tell about the AISLE and Anthropic situation because of the very different size of the organizations and the lack of insider knowledge about either of them. To me, the requirement that AISLE replicate Anthropic’s findings in whole or in part feels like an unnecessary one to justify their claims. The way I take it is that AISLE’s activity has shown that with a proper system, it is already possible with publicly available models to do the sort of bug detection work that made headlines with the Mythos release. That is not to deny that Mythos + system is not an improvement over AISLE’s work. Assessing the nature of that improvement is hard for the aforementioned reasons about org scale differences and the general complexity of the thing being compared. It seems all parties agree that Mythos is a big step up in its ability to write exploits. I see no reason to challenge that.
I think its very hard to articulate critiques of hype, and that simultaneously I tend to write in an over-vehement and pugnacious way that makes me quite vulnerable to whatever arguments I would make against someone, so I kind of regret my engagement here, though I do think its true that there is a sort of ineffable tendency to amplify what feel-to-me to be likely reductionisms about model capabilities and how AI systems are engineered.
I took OP as trying to establish that the signal on progress to AGI is quite noisy, and expressing a frustration with narratives that feel too clean or reductionistic about progress. That’s highly subjective though. As you note, we probably can’t even really define what constitutes significant progress between us, though I suspect we could come to largely agree about the amount of progress made, just not what word to use to describe it.
I do think a fair test of my view point will be if in one year’s time we see a proliferation of products/services that do this sort deep bug-finding pipeline. My intuition on this is that cybersecurity is going to go through something similar to what software engineering did last year, driven by the rising tide of model quality in conjunction with a more acute set of innovations in the application layer.
[Edit: I don’t think my prediction proves anything actually, since it’s coming to pass could reflect many different underlying causalities]
That makes a lot of sense, thanks.
I’m sorry you’ve said you regret your engagement, since I’ve found your comments helpful (the link to AISLE’s OpenSSL zero days has shifted my view on this a fair bit).
I guess this whole discussion does just feel like a classic example of “All debates are bravery debates”.