In trying to convince people to support global health charities I don’t think I’ve ever gotten the objection “but people in other countries don’t matter” or “they matter far less than Americans”, while I expect vegan advocates often hear that about animals.
I have gotten the latter one explicitly and the former implicitly, so I’m afraid you should get out more often :).
More generally, that foreigners and/or immigrants don’t matter, or matter little compared to native born locals, is fundamental to political parties around the world. It’s a banal take in international politics. Sure, some opposition to global health charities is an implied or explicit empirical claim about the role of government. But fundamentally, not all of it as a lot of people don’t value the lives of the out-group and people not in your country are in the out-group (or at least not in the in-group) for much of the world’s population.
First, I think GiveWell’s research, say, is mostly consumed by people who agree people matter equally regardless of which country they live in.
GiveWell donors are not representative of all humans. I think a large fraction of humanity would select the “we’re all equal” option on a survey but clearly don’t actually believe it or act on it (which brings us back to revealed preferences in trades like those humans make about animal lives).
But even if none of that is true, were someone to make this argument about the value of the global poor, the best moral (I make no claims about what’s empirically persuasive) response is “make a coherent and defensible argument against the equal moral worth of humans including the global poor”, and not something like “most humans actually agree that the global poor have equal value so don’t stray too far from equality in your assessment.” If you do the latter, you are making a contingent claim based on a given population at a given time. To put it mildly, for most of human history I do not believe we even would have gotten people to half-heartedly select the “moral equality for all humans” option on a survey. For me at least, we aren’t bound in our philosophical assessment of value by popular belief here or for animal welfare.
I have gotten the latter one explicitly and the former implicitly, so I’m afraid you should get out more often :).
Yikes; ugh. Probably a lot of this is me talking to so many college students in the Northeast.
“make a coherent and defensible argument against the equal moral worth of humans including the global poor”
I think maybe I’m not being clear enough about what I’m trying to do with my post? As I wrote to Wayne below, what I’m hoping happens is:
Some people who don’t think animals matter very much respond to RP’s weights with “that seems really far from where I’d put them, but if those are really right then a lot of us are making very poor prioritization decisions”.
Those people put in a bunch of effort to generate their own weights.
Probably those weights end up in a very different place, and then there’s a lot of discussion, figuring out why, and identifying the core disagreements.
I have gotten the latter one explicitly and the former implicitly, so I’m afraid you should get out more often :).
More generally, that foreigners and/or immigrants don’t matter, or matter little compared to native born locals, is fundamental to political parties around the world. It’s a banal take in international politics. Sure, some opposition to global health charities is an implied or explicit empirical claim about the role of government. But fundamentally, not all of it as a lot of people don’t value the lives of the out-group and people not in your country are in the out-group (or at least not in the in-group) for much of the world’s population.
GiveWell donors are not representative of all humans. I think a large fraction of humanity would select the “we’re all equal” option on a survey but clearly don’t actually believe it or act on it (which brings us back to revealed preferences in trades like those humans make about animal lives).
But even if none of that is true, were someone to make this argument about the value of the global poor, the best moral (I make no claims about what’s empirically persuasive) response is “make a coherent and defensible argument against the equal moral worth of humans including the global poor”, and not something like “most humans actually agree that the global poor have equal value so don’t stray too far from equality in your assessment.” If you do the latter, you are making a contingent claim based on a given population at a given time. To put it mildly, for most of human history I do not believe we even would have gotten people to half-heartedly select the “moral equality for all humans” option on a survey. For me at least, we aren’t bound in our philosophical assessment of value by popular belief here or for animal welfare.
Yikes; ugh. Probably a lot of this is me talking to so many college students in the Northeast.
I think maybe I’m not being clear enough about what I’m trying to do with my post? As I wrote to Wayne below, what I’m hoping happens is:
Some people who don’t think animals matter very much respond to RP’s weights with “that seems really far from where I’d put them, but if those are really right then a lot of us are making very poor prioritization decisions”.
Those people put in a bunch of effort to generate their own weights.
Probably those weights end up in a very different place, and then there’s a lot of discussion, figuring out why, and identifying the core disagreements.