I see this as a last resort procedure, if there is also an evidence linking people. But doing this without a credible evidence is in effect the witch hunting that most are avoiding as it may destroy the EA community instead of get the pieces together.
I see what happened as both system and human failure. Humans are wired to exploit gaps either for better or worse.
We cannot reduce the likelihood of involvement to zero for the moment—so my recommendation is to do this this procedure if there is really a legitimate evidence.
Thanks Miguel. I am worried about a witch hunt too, although I think it’s unlikely that a carefully conducted investigation that adheres to the principles of natural justice would destroy the EA community. My sense is that if the EA community is so weak that such an investigation would destroy the community, then the EA community will be toast anyway from the hit to community trust that is resulting/will result from the FTX situation.
Your suggestion is that there only be an investigation if some piece of evidence emerges. On first glance, my lawyer brain wants to agree with this. But if two weeks ago you had posed the hypothetical question to me “FTX has collapsed and SBF/others have misappropriated user funds; what is the probability that someone else in EA knew about it?”, I think my answer would probably have been higher than 1% or 2%. For a movement that wants to positively affect the trajectory of humanity (and to be taken seriously by governments and civil society), I think that even 1% or 2% is high enough to justify an (carefully conducted, natural justice-oriented) investigation.
I see your point now Tyronne. It is to ensure that EA on itself will take its responsibility on assuring the public that it is not in any way a fraud committed with EA involvement. I am agreeing on you on this one.
There is some possible optics benefit to it, yes, in that we could point to this action in (careful, measured) response to future criticism of EA from this angle. But I think the much more important reason to do it is for own health as a community of do-gooders. Even if we didn’t expect criticism, I would still want to prevent someone who was so careless from making decisions about the trajectory of the movement or about grant allocation etc (at least initially; expressing no view about whether such a person could redeem themselves, as that seems pretty fact specific and I’m not in a good position to offer a view anyway).
I see this as a last resort procedure, if there is also an evidence linking people. But doing this without a credible evidence is in effect the witch hunting that most are avoiding as it may destroy the EA community instead of get the pieces together.
I like the sentiment but disagree. We have to know how far this goes. This is a system failure, not just an individual failure.
I see what happened as both system and human failure. Humans are wired to exploit gaps either for better or worse.
We cannot reduce the likelihood of involvement to zero for the moment—so my recommendation is to do this this procedure if there is really a legitimate evidence.
Thanks Miguel. I am worried about a witch hunt too, although I think it’s unlikely that a carefully conducted investigation that adheres to the principles of natural justice would destroy the EA community. My sense is that if the EA community is so weak that such an investigation would destroy the community, then the EA community will be toast anyway from the hit to community trust that is resulting/will result from the FTX situation.
Your suggestion is that there only be an investigation if some piece of evidence emerges. On first glance, my lawyer brain wants to agree with this. But if two weeks ago you had posed the hypothetical question to me “FTX has collapsed and SBF/others have misappropriated user funds; what is the probability that someone else in EA knew about it?”, I think my answer would probably have been higher than 1% or 2%. For a movement that wants to positively affect the trajectory of humanity (and to be taken seriously by governments and civil society), I think that even 1% or 2% is high enough to justify an (carefully conducted, natural justice-oriented) investigation.
I see your point now Tyronne. It is to ensure that EA on itself will take its responsibility on assuring the public that it is not in any way a fraud committed with EA involvement. I am agreeing on you on this one.
There is some possible optics benefit to it, yes, in that we could point to this action in (careful, measured) response to future criticism of EA from this angle. But I think the much more important reason to do it is for own health as a community of do-gooders. Even if we didn’t expect criticism, I would still want to prevent someone who was so careless from making decisions about the trajectory of the movement or about grant allocation etc (at least initially; expressing no view about whether such a person could redeem themselves, as that seems pretty fact specific and I’m not in a good position to offer a view anyway).
That is another great point. Deterring future frauds through measures like this is very much recommended Tyrone.
Redemption? Unfortunately there are certain mistakes that one will not be able to redeem themselves no matter how hard they try.
I also think if this is your main objective in the post, change the title a bit to include the nature of your argument...
I’d argue the major point of an investigation is to establish the evidence