Woah I strongly disagree with much of this. For example
If you are new to finance, inexperienced and unsure of what you are doing (and don’t have a 4.0 from Harvard), your time is probably better spent looking for work and connections with smaller and less prestigious companies [than applying to bulge-bracket firms].
You definitely don’t need a 4.0 from Harvard to work at budge-bracket firms. In fact, at least one of the firms you listed hired literally no-one from Harvard in their latest analyst class! I would say that all undergraduates looking to get into finance should apply to all the bulge-brackets, not none of them.
Many minorities and women do make it big in even the most competitive areas of finance, although some people believe it is harder for them. A web search will get you more info and websites on this topic.
Many of the big banks run affirmative action programs; it is easier to get hired if you are not a white male. Indeed, I know one bank’s HR complained that there were no good black undergraduates for them to hire because their competitors had been offering them internships and scholarships since freshman year.
Investment banking
You should probably mention that IB is full of jocks and every EA who tried it has dropped out because of poor culture fit.
Hedge funds and asset management
Equity research: Analyzing stocks and making recommendations for investors (sell side) or working for investors to select investments (buy side).
You are double-counting: buyside research is the same as asset management. But when people say ‘equity research’, they typically mean sell-side.
However I did like the joke about The Goldman Sachs!
You definitely don’t need a 4.0 from Harvard to work at budge-bracket firms. In fact, at least one of the firms you listed hired literally no-one from Harvard in their latest analyst class! I would say that all undergraduates looking to get into finance should apply to all the bulge-brackets, not none of them.
Depends on what you mean by “apply.” If it’s someone who just read this guide, has been studying finance for a few weeks and goes ahead to fill out the online app for the next internship program, there are much better ways for them to make use of their time, unless they’re very well qualified on paper. These positions are insanely competitive and they mostly go to either people with extensive networks and contacts in the firm, or people from target schools.
If it’s someone who has networked with people in the firm and has contacts/alumni who will push their resume forward, then they should apply, but at that point the person will have learned enough to surpass the bounds of this guide’s advice.
Many of the big banks run affirmative action programs; it is easier to get hired if you are not a white male. Indeed, I know one bank’s HR complained that there were no good black undergraduates for them to hire because their competitors had been offering them internships and scholarships since freshman year.
True, but some people believe there is difficulty in terms of long term acceptance and fit in the industry. And small firms don’t have affirmative action programs.
You should probably mention that IB is full of jocks
How many investment bankers do you know?
every EA who tried it has dropped out because of poor culture fit.
How many? If the number of EAs who tried it was small, then this isn’t good evidence. It’s not even clear to me that “being an EA” is a sufficiently descriptive reference class.
Either way, I should definitely not mention that fact, because that will give people biases and preconceptions. When they are learning about a career for the first time, they should start out with good, neutral sources, not secondhand rumors about people dropping out.
You are double-counting: buyside research is the same as asset management. But when people say ‘equity research’, they typically mean sell-side.
I have seen people talk about both buyside and sellside ER.
These positions are insanely competitive and they mostly go to either people with extensive networks and contacts in the firm, or people from target schools.
This is not my experience at all. I know many people who got jobs at top banks despite (seemingly) no connections or prestige. They are more meritocratic than you give them credit for (and the average applicant is worse!).
True, but some people believe there is difficulty in terms of long term acceptance and fit in the industry.
Yes, some people believe that. On the other hand, I’ve seen people be promoted to senior positions, over more qualified people, explicitly because the firm needed more ‘diversity’. You shouldn’t deter people from applying to the industry on the basis of “some people believe” while not even mentioning the fact that they receive objective advantages that will help them.
I agree that this applies much less at smaller firms.
How many investment bankers do you know?
40 or so? I did work in investment banking for a while.
It’s not even clear to me that “being an EA” is a sufficiently descriptive reference class.
You’re writing a “Finance Careers for Earning to Give” guide and don’t consider “being an EA who is interested in applying to banks” a relevant reference class? These weren’t a random sample of EAs, these were EAs who thought working in IB might be a good idea for them.
Though perhaps it has worked out for some more recently and I just don’t know who they are.
Either way, I should definitely not mention that fact, because that will give people biases and preconceptions. When they are learning about a career for the first time, they should start out with good, neutral sources, not secondhand rumors about people dropping out.
No, if everyone trying something (EtG in a bank) decided it was a bad idea, that is definitely valuable information. It’s not a rumor, Ben could tell you who they are. We don’t want neutrality, we want accuracy.
I have seen people talk about both buyside and sellside ER.
This is not my experience at all. I know many people who got jobs at top banks despite (seemingly) no connections or prestige. They are more meritocratic than you give them credit for (and the average applicant is worse!).
Doing investment banking? Or doing other things at investment banks? It’s a very rare phenomenon. You might see some people who were accepted that way, but you’re not seeing the hundreds of equivalent people who weren’t. If you want a job then you network your way in or go to a target school—that is the standard advice you will get from any good source. I wasn’t speaking from anecdotes, I was speaking from sources (anecdotally, I did learn that it’s extremely rare for anyone to get accepted by a cold online application, but I wasn’t relying on that as a source).
Yes, some people believe that. On the other hand, I’ve seen people be promoted to senior positions, over more qualified people, explicitly because the firm needed more ‘diversity’.
Well thanks for your anecotes. When people look up the issue on their own like I referred them to, maybe they will find other stories like yours.
You shouldn’t deter people from applying to the industry on the basis of “some people believe” while not even mentioning the fact that they receive objective advantages that will help them.
I don’t think I “deterred” anyone. I pointed out that it was a possible issue and referred them to do their own research. I don’t think it’s better to make accusations of anti-white discrimination and call it a day.
40 or so? I did work in investment banking for a while.
Good for you. I’ve met a couple dozen investment bankers, and I’ve been sufficiently convinced that it’s not “full of jocks.” You do realize that culture varies by city as well as firm, right?
You’re writing a “Finance Careers for Earning to Give” guide and don’t consider “being an EA who is interested in applying to banks” a relevant reference class?
Nope. It’s very small, and being an EA encompasses many kinds of people who are essentially distributed across the same demographics and characteristics as people who join investment banking for non-EA reasons. It’s not much better than taking a random sample of bankers. What kind of mystical, deranged idea do you have of all the other investment bankers, that you think they’re really passionate for their job? They’re doing it for money and for exit opportunities, just like EAs would.
No, if everyone trying something (EtG in a bank) decided it was a bad idea, that is definitely valuable information.
No, if a few anecdotes turned out to be people who didn’t like it, that’s not valuable information. It’s a very small sample with a weak prior for there being a significant difference. It’s also a sample of people that is consistently being told that investment banking is too demanding and who is consistently being warned about “burning out,” and therefore entering with all kinds of preset expectations about how they might react to it. If you want a self-fulfilling prophecy, it sounds like a great example.
Woah I strongly disagree with much of this. For example
You definitely don’t need a 4.0 from Harvard to work at budge-bracket firms. In fact, at least one of the firms you listed hired literally no-one from Harvard in their latest analyst class! I would say that all undergraduates looking to get into finance should apply to all the bulge-brackets, not none of them.
Many of the big banks run affirmative action programs; it is easier to get hired if you are not a white male. Indeed, I know one bank’s HR complained that there were no good black undergraduates for them to hire because their competitors had been offering them internships and scholarships since freshman year.
You should probably mention that IB is full of jocks and every EA who tried it has dropped out because of poor culture fit.
You are double-counting: buyside research is the same as asset management. But when people say ‘equity research’, they typically mean sell-side.
However I did like the joke about The Goldman Sachs!
Depends on what you mean by “apply.” If it’s someone who just read this guide, has been studying finance for a few weeks and goes ahead to fill out the online app for the next internship program, there are much better ways for them to make use of their time, unless they’re very well qualified on paper. These positions are insanely competitive and they mostly go to either people with extensive networks and contacts in the firm, or people from target schools.
If it’s someone who has networked with people in the firm and has contacts/alumni who will push their resume forward, then they should apply, but at that point the person will have learned enough to surpass the bounds of this guide’s advice.
True, but some people believe there is difficulty in terms of long term acceptance and fit in the industry. And small firms don’t have affirmative action programs.
How many investment bankers do you know?
How many? If the number of EAs who tried it was small, then this isn’t good evidence. It’s not even clear to me that “being an EA” is a sufficiently descriptive reference class.
Either way, I should definitely not mention that fact, because that will give people biases and preconceptions. When they are learning about a career for the first time, they should start out with good, neutral sources, not secondhand rumors about people dropping out.
I have seen people talk about both buyside and sellside ER.
This is not my experience at all. I know many people who got jobs at top banks despite (seemingly) no connections or prestige. They are more meritocratic than you give them credit for (and the average applicant is worse!).
Yes, some people believe that. On the other hand, I’ve seen people be promoted to senior positions, over more qualified people, explicitly because the firm needed more ‘diversity’. You shouldn’t deter people from applying to the industry on the basis of “some people believe” while not even mentioning the fact that they receive objective advantages that will help them.
I agree that this applies much less at smaller firms.
40 or so? I did work in investment banking for a while.
You’re writing a “Finance Careers for Earning to Give” guide and don’t consider “being an EA who is interested in applying to banks” a relevant reference class? These weren’t a random sample of EAs, these were EAs who thought working in IB might be a good idea for them.
Though perhaps it has worked out for some more recently and I just don’t know who they are.
No, if everyone trying something (EtG in a bank) decided it was a bad idea, that is definitely valuable information. It’s not a rumor, Ben could tell you who they are. We don’t want neutrality, we want accuracy.
People in the industry? Who?
Doing investment banking? Or doing other things at investment banks? It’s a very rare phenomenon. You might see some people who were accepted that way, but you’re not seeing the hundreds of equivalent people who weren’t. If you want a job then you network your way in or go to a target school—that is the standard advice you will get from any good source. I wasn’t speaking from anecdotes, I was speaking from sources (anecdotally, I did learn that it’s extremely rare for anyone to get accepted by a cold online application, but I wasn’t relying on that as a source).
Well thanks for your anecotes. When people look up the issue on their own like I referred them to, maybe they will find other stories like yours.
I don’t think I “deterred” anyone. I pointed out that it was a possible issue and referred them to do their own research. I don’t think it’s better to make accusations of anti-white discrimination and call it a day.
Good for you. I’ve met a couple dozen investment bankers, and I’ve been sufficiently convinced that it’s not “full of jocks.” You do realize that culture varies by city as well as firm, right?
Nope. It’s very small, and being an EA encompasses many kinds of people who are essentially distributed across the same demographics and characteristics as people who join investment banking for non-EA reasons. It’s not much better than taking a random sample of bankers. What kind of mystical, deranged idea do you have of all the other investment bankers, that you think they’re really passionate for their job? They’re doing it for money and for exit opportunities, just like EAs would.
No, if a few anecdotes turned out to be people who didn’t like it, that’s not valuable information. It’s a very small sample with a weak prior for there being a significant difference. It’s also a sample of people that is consistently being told that investment banking is too demanding and who is consistently being warned about “burning out,” and therefore entering with all kinds of preset expectations about how they might react to it. If you want a self-fulfilling prophecy, it sounds like a great example.
Sorry mate, I don’t remember the references.