Men who upset women in EA don’t care about women’s feelings.
Antithesis
I am a man who was banned from EAGs for a year, but I care about women’s feelings.
Synthesis
Sometimes there are hard tradeoffs between people where neither party is obviously good or bad. In such cases it is better to acknowledge that we are actually making choices about what culture works for what group.
Preamble
I am an outgoing but clumsy person. I make friends a lot, flirt a lot. I get distracted easily and say things that seem true to me. In general, I think I bring a lot of joy to the world. But for a few, I upset them quite a lot.
And so, over a couple of years I had a number of run-ins with community health. Bad breakups, people who felt uncomfortable with ancillary touches or slightly flirtatious comments. To be extra scrupulous I asked upset people if they wanted me to report myself. I even asked community health for advice, to try and reduce the risk.
But even after that and though I was on my best behaviour, trying to be really careful, I was told I upset two more people and I was banned from EA events for a year.
That’s a pretty bad sign.
I cannot be that bad, because I’m allowed to attend events again. And nor is this article a diatribe against community health, who have a hard job and do it quite well. It’s not even to profess my innocence—I imagine I did many of the things people report that I did.
I write this because I see and hear people like myself portrayed as uncaring. And I don’t think that’s true of me. I like many of the people I upset a lot. My internal experience is of caring about them.
And I also write this because there is a tradeoff here that people don’t want to talk about. Between clumsy men and sensitive women. And I am not asking for the situation to change—I have already largely left— but I think it’s a valuable conversation to have.
Evidence of caring
Here are some ways in which I see that I care:
I think about how to not upset people while talking to them
If I upset someone, I asked if they wanted me to tell community health
I asked community health for advice about upsetting people less
I always made clear that people could tell whoever they wanted
Towards the end I would ask even close friends if I could hug them
At the end, I was being as careful as I could be
But still people were upset (earlier cases, I know what I did, later ones I have no idea)
Even so, I care still:
People’s sadness is bad, even if has caused me pain
I have thought about this for many hours
I have gotten feedback from friends
I have tried to learn more about this
How did this happen?
I’m not going to talk about specific events. But there were a number of small incidents.
It was a range of upset partners, small touches people didn’t like, comments people didn’t like and some I don’t know of.
How did this happen so often?
I grew up in quite a touchy culture and so I used to touch people on the arm a lot while talking to them. I’m not great at reading facial expressions so sometimes I misunderstand people. I am attractive enough that people do actually want to date me so I become close to people. I am social enough that I think people assume I understand what I am doing. I have a tendency to focus on straight talking rather than kindness when things get heated.
Why was I dismissive of people I dated?
I guess I just wasn’t tracking it. I felt like it was pretty clear that I liked and respected my partners. I did lots of things in my own mind that showed that I cared about them. I now acknowledge the error and am sorry, but at the time, it was just very easy for me not to notice, or focus on caring for them in other ways (which perhaps they didn’t notice). I do not think my behavior, if explained would seem deeply unacceptable.
How could I stand so close to random people at parties, or touch them on the arm?
I’ve always been told I don’t have a great grasp of personal space. In some sense I don’t know what your experience of it is. How do you know how close to stand? Can you feel, somewhere, that someone is crowding you? Can you sense when they move back? I can start to notice some of that, but only if I’m really paying attention. And mostly I am not.
How could I think that flirty action was appropriate?
Well often I am tracking a history of some flirting. I don’t just jump to level 10. In most of the times someone has been upset, I’ve either asked, or we’ve talked about sex before (or sexted) or they were a close friend. I acknowledge that I have made errors, but also, sometimes things go really well? Sometimes the kind of thing that one person thinks is entirely unacceptable, another thinks is fine, or good.
Suffering matters, including mine
It seems natural to focus on the women who suffer here. If it is anyone’s fault, it is mine. And I do take responsibility for changing my behaviour.
But conscious experience matters. And I am conscious too.
And I suffer. I have hurt across months over this. I have lost friends. I hear rumours about myself that don’t match my recollection. I have no recourse to challenge or understand.
And isn’t it possible that this wasn’t anyone’s fault? That there were different norms and expectations and actions that would have been reasonable elsewhere hurt people.
I am glad we listen to those people, but I would like us to also listen to me.
I don’t think we’re a good fit
I don’t think we are a good fit.
And I have mostly stopped going to EA events.
I don’t want to upset people even when I’m trying my hardest, and I don’t feel safe in an environment where my actions are misinterpreted.
EA used to be a community where I felt more welcomed. I’ve come to realize that the current form of EA is not great for me because, despite my good intentions, I cannot “be myself” without hurting some subset of women and the community will side against me if this happens.
I’d like us to be honest about this
It’s ok if the community decides to value the comfort of some subset of women over guys like me.
But I wish we acknowledged this trade-off. And I think a more mature community would have discussions about what norms they want. I think it’s bad that we don’t.
I agree that discomfort is bad, too.
But I also wish we acknowledged that there is value in physical contact among friends or even casual romantic interactions.
There is a tradeoff here too.
This is a hard problem, and we can’t satisfy everyone. But ultimately, the guys upsetting people aren’t necessarily bad people. There are other ways that bad outcomes can result. I hold myself responsible, but I’m not a bad person. I’m a person.
To those I have upset, I am sorry. I would take it back if I could.
I don’t think we’re a good fit
When people talk about women’s negative experiences in EA, they act as if it happens because men just don’t care about women’s feelings.
I was banned from EAGs for a year. And I care about women’s feelings. I just don’t think we’re a good fit.
Examples/things that brought this mind
https://time.com/6252617/effective-altruism-sexual-harassment/
https://open.substack.com/pub/whatweare/p/on-sexism-in-the-effective-altruism
Thesis
Men who upset women in EA don’t care about women’s feelings.
Antithesis
I am a man who was banned from EAGs for a year, but I care about women’s feelings.
Synthesis
Sometimes there are hard tradeoffs between people where neither party is obviously good or bad. In such cases it is better to acknowledge that we are actually making choices about what culture works for what group.
Preamble
I am an outgoing but clumsy person. I make friends a lot, flirt a lot. I get distracted easily and say things that seem true to me. In general, I think I bring a lot of joy to the world. But for a few, I upset them quite a lot.
And so, over a couple of years I had a number of run-ins with community health. Bad breakups, people who felt uncomfortable with ancillary touches or slightly flirtatious comments. To be extra scrupulous I asked upset people if they wanted me to report myself. I even asked community health for advice, to try and reduce the risk.
But even after that and though I was on my best behaviour, trying to be really careful, I was told I upset two more people and I was banned from EA events for a year.
That’s a pretty bad sign.
I cannot be that bad, because I’m allowed to attend events again. And nor is this article a diatribe against community health, who have a hard job and do it quite well. It’s not even to profess my innocence—I imagine I did many of the things people report that I did.
I write this because I see and hear people like myself portrayed as uncaring. And I don’t think that’s true of me. I like many of the people I upset a lot. My internal experience is of caring about them.
And I also write this because there is a tradeoff here that people don’t want to talk about. Between clumsy men and sensitive women. And I am not asking for the situation to change—I have already largely left— but I think it’s a valuable conversation to have.
Evidence of caring
Here are some ways in which I see that I care:
I think about how to not upset people while talking to them
If I upset someone, I asked if they wanted me to tell community health
I asked community health for advice about upsetting people less
I always made clear that people could tell whoever they wanted
Towards the end I would ask even close friends if I could hug them
At the end, I was being as careful as I could be
But still people were upset (earlier cases, I know what I did, later ones I have no idea)
Even so, I care still:
People’s sadness is bad, even if has caused me pain
I have thought about this for many hours
I have gotten feedback from friends
I have tried to learn more about this
How did this happen?
I’m not going to talk about specific events. But there were a number of small incidents.
It was a range of upset partners, small touches people didn’t like, comments people didn’t like and some I don’t know of.
How did this happen so often?
I grew up in quite a touchy culture and so I used to touch people on the arm a lot while talking to them. I’m not great at reading facial expressions so sometimes I misunderstand people. I am attractive enough that people do actually want to date me so I become close to people. I am social enough that I think people assume I understand what I am doing. I have a tendency to focus on straight talking rather than kindness when things get heated.
Why was I dismissive of people I dated?
I guess I just wasn’t tracking it. I felt like it was pretty clear that I liked and respected my partners. I did lots of things in my own mind that showed that I cared about them. I now acknowledge the error and am sorry, but at the time, it was just very easy for me not to notice, or focus on caring for them in other ways (which perhaps they didn’t notice). I do not think my behavior, if explained would seem deeply unacceptable.
How could I stand so close to random people at parties, or touch them on the arm?
I’ve always been told I don’t have a great grasp of personal space. In some sense I don’t know what your experience of it is. How do you know how close to stand? Can you feel, somewhere, that someone is crowding you? Can you sense when they move back? I can start to notice some of that, but only if I’m really paying attention. And mostly I am not.
How could I think that flirty action was appropriate?
Well often I am tracking a history of some flirting. I don’t just jump to level 10. In most of the times someone has been upset, I’ve either asked, or we’ve talked about sex before (or sexted) or they were a close friend. I acknowledge that I have made errors, but also, sometimes things go really well? Sometimes the kind of thing that one person thinks is entirely unacceptable, another thinks is fine, or good.
Suffering matters, including mine
It seems natural to focus on the women who suffer here. If it is anyone’s fault, it is mine. And I do take responsibility for changing my behaviour.
But conscious experience matters. And I am conscious too.
And I suffer. I have hurt across months over this. I have lost friends. I hear rumours about myself that don’t match my recollection. I have no recourse to challenge or understand.
And isn’t it possible that this wasn’t anyone’s fault? That there were different norms and expectations and actions that would have been reasonable elsewhere hurt people.
I am glad we listen to those people, but I would like us to also listen to me.
I don’t think we’re a good fit
I don’t think we are a good fit.
And I have mostly stopped going to EA events.
I don’t want to upset people even when I’m trying my hardest, and I don’t feel safe in an environment where my actions are misinterpreted.
EA used to be a community where I felt more welcomed. I’ve come to realize that the current form of EA is not great for me because, despite my good intentions, I cannot “be myself” without hurting some subset of women and the community will side against me if this happens.
I’d like us to be honest about this
It’s ok if the community decides to value the comfort of some subset of women over guys like me.
But I wish we acknowledged this trade-off. And I think a more mature community would have discussions about what norms they want. I think it’s bad that we don’t.
I agree that discomfort is bad, too.
But I also wish we acknowledged that there is value in physical contact among friends or even casual romantic interactions.
There is a tradeoff here too.
This is a hard problem, and we can’t satisfy everyone. But ultimately, the guys upsetting people aren’t necessarily bad people. There are other ways that bad outcomes can result. I hold myself responsible, but I’m not a bad person. I’m a person.
To those I have upset, I am sorry. I would take it back if I could.