What specifically in farmed animal welfare do you think beats GiveWell? (GiveWell is a specific thing you can actually donate money to; “farmed animal welfare” is not)
Farmed animal welfare is politically controversial in a way that GiveWell is not. This is potentially bad: - Maybe people who don’t care about farmed animals are correct - Farmed animal advocacy is so cost-effective because, if successful, it forces other people (meat consumers? meat producers?) to bear the costs of treating animals better. I’m less comfortable spending other people’s money to make the world better than spending my own money to make the world better - Increased advocacy for farm animals might just cause increased advocacy for farms, just burning money rather than improving the world - It’s hard to be as confident in political interventions—humans and groups of humans are much less predictable than e.g. malaria - Farmed animal welfare sometimes seems overly-connected with dubious left-wing politics (e.g. https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/5iCsbrSqLyrfP55ry/concerns-with-ace-s-recent-behavior-1)
Good point, and I’ll throw out The Humane League as one specific recipient of money.
Farmed animal welfare is politically controversial in a way that GiveWell is not. This is potentially bad:
Is OpenPhil’s current support of farmed animal welfare politically controversial? I don’t get that sense but, if so, among who?
Maybe people who don’t care about farmed animals are correct
Sure but same goes for literally everything, including eg AMF being net positive. Happy to discuss object level though.
Farmed animal advocacy is so cost-effective because, if successful, it forces other people (meat consumers? meat producers?) to bear the costs of treating animals better. I’m less comfortable spending other people’s money to make the world better than spending my own money to make the world better
Interesting point and yeah I think this is valid. At some margin I think this would become an important consideration (e.g., advocating some policy that made being non-vegan super expensive) but at the current margin it seems like these costs are just extremely small relative to the suffering reduction they induce.
Increased advocacy for farm animals might just cause increased advocacy for farms, just burning money rather than improving the world
Farm lobby is strong. I agree this has to be accounted for but trust OpenPhil, ACE, and e.g. The Humane League to account for this when deciding what to do and who to fund. Empirically, it seems to be the case that e.g. cage free advocacy has worked and laws like California’s prop 12 have passed and been upheld.
It’s hard to be as confident in political interventions—humans and groups of humans are much less predictable than e.g. malaria
First, at one level I agree but then would point to all the non-political animal welfare interventions like cage free advocacy without bans and Shrimp Welfare Project paying for farms to install stunners. At another I just disagree that e.g. AMF has high-confidence certain impact on the world. All the analyses explicitly don’t even try to account for 3rd+ order effects (not sure about 2nd) which is plausibly where a ton of impact lies.
I’ve definitely seen first hand how much of especially veganism/vegan advocacy per se is very lefty and, more importantly, less clear eyed and epistemically rigorous than EA in general and certainly meta level EA orgs. IMO the appropriate response here is to be a countervailing force in the sense of technocratic rigor (not conservatism), not to “leave those people be”.
At some margin I think this would become an important consideration (e.g., advocating some policy that made being non-vegan super expensive) but at the current margin it seems like these costs are just extremely small relative to the suffering reduction they induce.
Is there a cost-effectiveness analysis that takes these costs into account? I don’t think I’ve seen one.
People have voted for legislation improving animal welfare in ballot measures or elected candidates to government whose policies include improving animal welfare, so rather than imposing net burdens on people, it could be in our net interest. Of course, many people will oppose these welfare improvements, and they may be worse off.
Corporate+institutional animal welfare campaign/outreach work may also depend on implicit or explicit public support in order to succeed.
There’s related research on animal welfare as a public good and the vote-buy gap.
What specifically in farmed animal welfare do you think beats GiveWell? (GiveWell is a specific thing you can actually donate money to; “farmed animal welfare” is not)
Farmed animal welfare is politically controversial in a way that GiveWell is not. This is potentially bad:
- Maybe people who don’t care about farmed animals are correct
- Farmed animal advocacy is so cost-effective because, if successful, it forces other people (meat consumers? meat producers?) to bear the costs of treating animals better. I’m less comfortable spending other people’s money to make the world better than spending my own money to make the world better
- Increased advocacy for farm animals might just cause increased advocacy for farms, just burning money rather than improving the world
- It’s hard to be as confident in political interventions—humans and groups of humans are much less predictable than e.g. malaria
- Farmed animal welfare sometimes seems overly-connected with dubious left-wing politics (e.g. https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/5iCsbrSqLyrfP55ry/concerns-with-ace-s-recent-behavior-1)
Good point, and I’ll throw out The Humane League as one specific recipient of money.
Is OpenPhil’s current support of farmed animal welfare politically controversial? I don’t get that sense but, if so, among who?
Sure but same goes for literally everything, including eg AMF being net positive. Happy to discuss object level though.
Interesting point and yeah I think this is valid. At some margin I think this would become an important consideration (e.g., advocating some policy that made being non-vegan super expensive) but at the current margin it seems like these costs are just extremely small relative to the suffering reduction they induce.
Farm lobby is strong. I agree this has to be accounted for but trust OpenPhil, ACE, and e.g. The Humane League to account for this when deciding what to do and who to fund. Empirically, it seems to be the case that e.g. cage free advocacy has worked and laws like California’s prop 12 have passed and been upheld.
First, at one level I agree but then would point to all the non-political animal welfare interventions like cage free advocacy without bans and Shrimp Welfare Project paying for farms to install stunners. At another I just disagree that e.g. AMF has high-confidence certain impact on the world. All the analyses explicitly don’t even try to account for 3rd+ order effects (not sure about 2nd) which is plausibly where a ton of impact lies.
I’ve definitely seen first hand how much of especially veganism/vegan advocacy per se is very lefty and, more importantly, less clear eyed and epistemically rigorous than EA in general and certainly meta level EA orgs. IMO the appropriate response here is to be a countervailing force in the sense of technocratic rigor (not conservatism), not to “leave those people be”.
Is there a cost-effectiveness analysis that takes these costs into account? I don’t think I’ve seen one.
People have voted for legislation improving animal welfare in ballot measures or elected candidates to government whose policies include improving animal welfare, so rather than imposing net burdens on people, it could be in our net interest. Of course, many people will oppose these welfare improvements, and they may be worse off.
Corporate+institutional animal welfare campaign/outreach work may also depend on implicit or explicit public support in order to succeed.
There’s related research on animal welfare as a public good and the vote-buy gap.