Thank you for trying your best to understand the world better, but please add more points on the health BENEFITS a vegan diet provides.
This post focuses way too much on the negative health correlations among vegans populations, ignoring the many negative health correlations in omnivorous groups—painting a picture that an omnivorous diet is *clearly* better 🙄
To address each of your evidence-based points (ignoring the bro-science points):
- “Vegans/vegetarians had over twice the odds of depression compared to omnivores” Completely expected. We are aware of the horrible reality around us with tortured animals being treated like yummy products all around us. I’m surprised it’s not 5x higher depression.
- “Among those who lived to 80, vegetarians/vegans had higher rates of cognitive impairment: vegetarians had over 2× the odds of cognitive impairment” We have cheap Omega 3 algae supplements today. We know Omega 3 supplementation is extremely helpful in old age. This deficiency is slowly resolving itself in the vegan population—just as B12 did. Spread the word.
- “Vegans had over 2× the risk of hip fracture” Increased obesity in normal populations help protect against hip fracture. And just use calcium supplements—unless supplementing with dead animals is somehow more reliable?
- “Total Meat Intake is Associated with Life Expectancy: A Cross-Sectional Data Analysis of 175 Contemporary Populations” Besides the article title—what exactly is it about their numbers that compels you to advocate for meat? The numbers they give are not straightforward, unless you just want to take this dude’s word for it.
- “A small study found 26.5% menstrual irregularity in vegetarians vs 4.9% in non‑vegetarians. Low B₁₂ and iron can lead to anemia and ovulatory problems; low zinc may disrupt menstrual cycles; inadequate iodine or selenium can affect thyroid function, which is crucial for fertility.”—Multivitamins are better than advocating for animal death.
Overall, extremely weak reasons to advocate for animal consumption, but thank you for highlighting the silliness of these commonly held ideas.
I know you put value on personal accounts, so just to give my own account, after 11 years of veganism, I feel way less depressed than when I ate an omnivorous diet.
On depression, there isn’t much reason for many classes of vegans/vegetarians to experience increased rate of depression due to distress about other people’s animal consumption: those who would identify health, environment, culture, some forms of religion, etc. as their primary motivation for their diet. That means that, if your explanation is the actual cause of risk doubling, vegans/vegetarians with animal-welfare motivations should have an even higher risk than that.
If that’s so, then would the actually hazardous condition be exposure to animal-welfare based vegan advocacy? If true, that would have some pretty significant implications in my book. One would be doing significant harm to vulnerable people by making them more aware of the scope of animal suffering—and they couldn’t even fix said mental-health harm by going vegan.
If vegans do have higher rates of depression, it seems like there are several possible explanations:
1. It is indeed due to diet/nutrients.
2. There is a selection effect—people who go vegan are more likely to suffer from depression, but it’s not due to a vegan diet. For example, perhaps people who go vegan are less conformist/willing to go against social norms, and this corresponds to a psychological profile that increases risk of depression.
3. Relatedly, it may be that going vegan is distressing because of seeing other people’s animal consumption. This might not just be due to greater awareness of animal suffering, but because it creates a barrier between a vegan and friends/family/rest of society—i.e. the main driver may be social exclusion.
I’ve not looked at any literature on this—perhaps there are some studies which largely rule out 2 and 3. I expect it may be a combination of the explanations (anecdotally 2 and 3 are both true for me—I was anxious and depressed before going vegan. And veganism makes it harder to connect with some people, particularly e.g. when dating)
“there isn’t much reason for many classes of vegans/vegetarians to experience increased rate of depression due to distress about other people’s animal consumption: those who would identify health, environment, culture, some forms of religion, etc. as their primary motivation for their diet.”
I agree this is likely for those where their own health is the primary motivation. But I could easily imagine that people who intensely care about the environment, culture, or their religion being distressed (to the point of depression) when they are surrounded by a society that widely dismisses and often mocks their values.
Do you think we should advocate for meat consumption just because of this ethereal correlation (very likely not causation)? Vegans, just like me and those around me, can be perfectly mentally healthy while avoiding dead animals.
Thank you for trying your best to understand the world better, but please add more points on the health BENEFITS a vegan diet provides.
This post focuses way too much on the negative health correlations among vegans populations, ignoring the many negative health correlations in omnivorous groups—painting a picture that an omnivorous diet is *clearly* better 🙄
To address each of your evidence-based points (ignoring the bro-science points):
- “Vegans/vegetarians had over twice the odds of depression compared to omnivores” Completely expected. We are aware of the horrible reality around us with tortured animals being treated like yummy products all around us. I’m surprised it’s not 5x higher depression.
- “Among those who lived to 80, vegetarians/vegans had higher rates of cognitive impairment: vegetarians had over 2× the odds of cognitive impairment” We have cheap Omega 3 algae supplements today. We know Omega 3 supplementation is extremely helpful in old age. This deficiency is slowly resolving itself in the vegan population—just as B12 did. Spread the word.
- “Vegans had over 2× the risk of hip fracture” Increased obesity in normal populations help protect against hip fracture. And just use calcium supplements—unless supplementing with dead animals is somehow more reliable?
- “Total Meat Intake is Associated with Life Expectancy: A Cross-Sectional Data Analysis of 175 Contemporary Populations” Besides the article title—what exactly is it about their numbers that compels you to advocate for meat? The numbers they give are not straightforward, unless you just want to take this dude’s word for it.
- “A small study found 26.5% menstrual irregularity in vegetarians vs 4.9% in non‑vegetarians. Low B₁₂ and iron can lead to anemia and ovulatory problems; low zinc may disrupt menstrual cycles; inadequate iodine or selenium can affect thyroid function, which is crucial for fertility.”—Multivitamins are better than advocating for animal death.
Overall, extremely weak reasons to advocate for animal consumption, but thank you for highlighting the silliness of these commonly held ideas.
I know you put value on personal accounts, so just to give my own account, after 11 years of veganism, I feel way less depressed than when I ate an omnivorous diet.
Welcome to the forum, @SpeakClearly. You make some good points here, but could you please engage in a friendlier way?
On depression, there isn’t much reason for many classes of vegans/vegetarians to experience increased rate of depression due to distress about other people’s animal consumption: those who would identify health, environment, culture, some forms of religion, etc. as their primary motivation for their diet. That means that, if your explanation is the actual cause of risk doubling, vegans/vegetarians with animal-welfare motivations should have an even higher risk than that.
If that’s so, then would the actually hazardous condition be exposure to animal-welfare based vegan advocacy? If true, that would have some pretty significant implications in my book. One would be doing significant harm to vulnerable people by making them more aware of the scope of animal suffering—and they couldn’t even fix said mental-health harm by going vegan.
If vegans do have higher rates of depression, it seems like there are several possible explanations:
1. It is indeed due to diet/nutrients.
2. There is a selection effect—people who go vegan are more likely to suffer from depression, but it’s not due to a vegan diet. For example, perhaps people who go vegan are less conformist/willing to go against social norms, and this corresponds to a psychological profile that increases risk of depression.
3. Relatedly, it may be that going vegan is distressing because of seeing other people’s animal consumption. This might not just be due to greater awareness of animal suffering, but because it creates a barrier between a vegan and friends/family/rest of society—i.e. the main driver may be social exclusion.
I’ve not looked at any literature on this—perhaps there are some studies which largely rule out 2 and 3. I expect it may be a combination of the explanations (anecdotally 2 and 3 are both true for me—I was anxious and depressed before going vegan. And veganism makes it harder to connect with some people, particularly e.g. when dating)
I agree this is likely for those where their own health is the primary motivation. But I could easily imagine that people who intensely care about the environment, culture, or their religion being distressed (to the point of depression) when they are surrounded by a society that widely dismisses and often mocks their values.
Do you think we should advocate for meat consumption just because of this ethereal correlation (very likely not causation)? Vegans, just like me and those around me, can be perfectly mentally healthy while avoiding dead animals.