“Long science comment incoming: I’ve had some time to go over the literature, and I find the passage below (which is the main secular argument against abortion presented) to be highly misleading.”
As I already explained in my comments above, the paragraph to which you refer was not the main argument against abortion, it was an extra peripheral consideration for a certain subgroup of readers. I do not understand why you seek to misrepresent my post even after I made this clarification.
“The mature brain cortex does not appear until week 24-ish, and according to this review paper , EEG results only produce reliable patterns synonymous with “wakefulness” at week 30, and at earlier dates the signal is often discontinuous. However, there is some research showing that cognition and experiences can occur without a fully formed cortex, so it should not be taken as the dividing line for certain.
(If you think I am cherry picking, these sources come from the first google scholar results for “fetal pain review”)”
Yes, Lee’s paper is well-known. But the wakefulness stuff is not really plausible—the RCOG dropped the argument completely from their recent review of the evidence, as Bellieni’s recent response points out (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejp.2109) - as Derbyshire pointed out elsewhere, there are a number of problems with this argument, including the fact that we just don’t really know much about the EEG sleep patterns even for newborns, let alone fetuses. We also have pretty clear ultrasonography from 23 weeks showing a fetus clearly crying in response to an anaesthetic injection—it is very implausible to me that this is done while asleep.
Regarding the rest: yes, the authors are somewhat cautious, though I’m pretty sure Bockmann now considers it likely the fetus can feel pain from 12 weeks, and I think is open to it being even earlier. The question is: is there any reason why the fetus wouldn’t feel pain at that point? You might say ‘because the cortex isn’t fully developed’. But as the authors point out, there is reason to doubt the necessity of the cortex for pain perception. The wakefulness argument doesn’t really work, for the reasons that Bellieni and Derbyshire describe.
“What the OP also didn’t mention was what the whole debate was mainly about: whether or not to use analgesia or anaesthesia when performing abortions. Even if an early fetus is capable of feeling pain, the use of these during the abortion may render the procedure painless.”
No, this isn’t what the debate is mainly about. I have made very clear in my comments I am also talking about early embryos/fetuses before pain capability, and that the arguments I describe briefly (and link to for more detail) apply to these.
I am highlighting the passage because I am not a fan of misleading representations of the scientific evidence, which is what you have done in the initial post.
It appears you do know the contents of the papers you have referred to, and knew it at the time of making the post as well. This makes it significantly worse that you misleadingly summarized it as saying that a 13 week old fetus is “fully formed”, “likely conscious”, and “likely capable of feeling pain”, when the study you cited disagreed on first two points and expressed great uncertainty about the third. This gives the impression that the fetus at 13 weeks is as formed, as conscious, and as capable of pain as a typical full-grown baby, which from this analysis appears to false.
I focused on this passage, because as far as I can tell it’s the main secular argument you made for abortion being bad. Otherwise you kind of just state that we should assume 4 week old fetuses have full human rights until proven otherwise, a position that seems unpopular even among the religious. If you had included the relevant disclaimers, or dropped the secular pretense entirely, I would not have been so harsh, and merely expressed my belief that forcing women to give birth when they don’t want to is unacceptable and immoral.
Highlighting the passage is perfectly fine—I wrote it, and it is part of the post. What is not fine is continually suggesting that it is the primary argument I have given for abortion being wrong, when that is manifestly not the case, and I have made that explicit. I’m happy to respond to criticisms of that particular point—but not for people to misrepresent my post by pretending that it is the main argument given, especially when I have clarified that it is not.
Yes, I am familiar with the evidence. If I had deliberately misrepresented any of the papers I cited, then again, you would be right. But you have failed to show that. Bockmann does think the fetus is likely conscious and able to feel pain by that point, even if they phrased it more hesitantly in the paper, presumably because it is difficult to be certain. Of course, we can never be certain—but they have shown that the main arguments for placing fetal consciousness later in pregnancy fail. I see no good reason to suppose it is later than 12 weeks.
Again, no, I did not ‘just state’ that we should ‘assume’ 4 week old fetuses have full human rights. I said, for example, “Denial of fetal personhood typically leads to implausible conclusions regarding how we may treat infants and severely disabled humans, and arguably to a denial of human equality even among non-disabled adults.” These arguments apply to all embryos/fetuses, regardless of whether they can feel pain, and more detail is available in the references linked.
“Long science comment incoming: I’ve had some time to go over the literature, and I find the passage below (which is the main secular argument against abortion presented) to be highly misleading.”
As I already explained in my comments above, the paragraph to which you refer was not the main argument against abortion, it was an extra peripheral consideration for a certain subgroup of readers. I do not understand why you seek to misrepresent my post even after I made this clarification.
“The mature brain cortex does not appear until week 24-ish, and according to this review paper , EEG results only produce reliable patterns synonymous with “wakefulness” at week 30, and at earlier dates the signal is often discontinuous. However, there is some research showing that cognition and experiences can occur without a fully formed cortex, so it should not be taken as the dividing line for certain.
(If you think I am cherry picking, these sources come from the first google scholar results for “fetal pain review”)”
Yes, Lee’s paper is well-known. But the wakefulness stuff is not really plausible—the RCOG dropped the argument completely from their recent review of the evidence, as Bellieni’s recent response points out (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejp.2109) - as Derbyshire pointed out elsewhere, there are a number of problems with this argument, including the fact that we just don’t really know much about the EEG sleep patterns even for newborns, let alone fetuses. We also have pretty clear ultrasonography from 23 weeks showing a fetus clearly crying in response to an anaesthetic injection—it is very implausible to me that this is done while asleep.
Regarding the rest: yes, the authors are somewhat cautious, though I’m pretty sure Bockmann now considers it likely the fetus can feel pain from 12 weeks, and I think is open to it being even earlier. The question is: is there any reason why the fetus wouldn’t feel pain at that point? You might say ‘because the cortex isn’t fully developed’. But as the authors point out, there is reason to doubt the necessity of the cortex for pain perception. The wakefulness argument doesn’t really work, for the reasons that Bellieni and Derbyshire describe.
“What the OP also didn’t mention was what the whole debate was mainly about: whether or not to use analgesia or anaesthesia when performing abortions. Even if an early fetus is capable of feeling pain, the use of these during the abortion may render the procedure painless.”
No, this isn’t what the debate is mainly about. I have made very clear in my comments I am also talking about early embryos/fetuses before pain capability, and that the arguments I describe briefly (and link to for more detail) apply to these.
I am highlighting the passage because I am not a fan of misleading representations of the scientific evidence, which is what you have done in the initial post.
It appears you do know the contents of the papers you have referred to, and knew it at the time of making the post as well. This makes it significantly worse that you misleadingly summarized it as saying that a 13 week old fetus is “fully formed”, “likely conscious”, and “likely capable of feeling pain”, when the study you cited disagreed on first two points and expressed great uncertainty about the third. This gives the impression that the fetus at 13 weeks is as formed, as conscious, and as capable of pain as a typical full-grown baby, which from this analysis appears to false.
I focused on this passage, because as far as I can tell it’s the main secular argument you made for abortion being bad. Otherwise you kind of just state that we should assume 4 week old fetuses have full human rights until proven otherwise, a position that seems unpopular even among the religious. If you had included the relevant disclaimers, or dropped the secular pretense entirely, I would not have been so harsh, and merely expressed my belief that forcing women to give birth when they don’t want to is unacceptable and immoral.
Highlighting the passage is perfectly fine—I wrote it, and it is part of the post. What is not fine is continually suggesting that it is the primary argument I have given for abortion being wrong, when that is manifestly not the case, and I have made that explicit. I’m happy to respond to criticisms of that particular point—but not for people to misrepresent my post by pretending that it is the main argument given, especially when I have clarified that it is not.
Yes, I am familiar with the evidence. If I had deliberately misrepresented any of the papers I cited, then again, you would be right. But you have failed to show that. Bockmann does think the fetus is likely conscious and able to feel pain by that point, even if they phrased it more hesitantly in the paper, presumably because it is difficult to be certain. Of course, we can never be certain—but they have shown that the main arguments for placing fetal consciousness later in pregnancy fail. I see no good reason to suppose it is later than 12 weeks.
Again, no, I did not ‘just state’ that we should ‘assume’ 4 week old fetuses have full human rights. I said, for example, “Denial of fetal personhood typically leads to implausible conclusions regarding how we may treat infants and severely disabled humans, and arguably to a denial of human equality even among non-disabled adults.” These arguments apply to all embryos/fetuses, regardless of whether they can feel pain, and more detail is available in the references linked.