By “in expectation random”, do you mean 0 in expectation?
Yes, that’s what we meant.
I am not sure I understand your argument. You seem to say the following:
Post-humans will put “sentient tools” into harsher conditions than the ones the tools were optimized for.
If “sentient tools” are put into these conditions, their welfare decreases (compared with the situations they were optimized for).
My answer: The complete “side-effects” (in the meaning of the article) on sentient tools comprises bringing them into existence and using them. The relevant question seems to be if this package is positive or negative, compared to the counterfactual (no sentient tools). Humanity might bring sentient tools into conditions that are worse for the tools than the conditions they were optimized for. Even these conditions might still be overall positive.
Apart from that, I am not sure if the two assumptions listed as bullet points above will actually hold for the majority of “sentient tools”. I think that we know very little about the way tools will be created and used in the far future, which was one reason for assuming “zero in expectation” side-effects.
Isn’t it equally justified to assume that their welfare in the conditions they were originally optimized/designed for is 0 in expectation? If anything, it makes more sense to me to make assumptions about this setting first, since it’s easier to understand their motivations and experiences in this setting based on their value for the optimization process.
Apart from that, I am not sure if the two assumptions listed as bullet points above will actually hold for the majority of “sentient tools”.
We can ignore any set of tools that has zero total wellbeing in expectation; what’s left could still dominate the expected value of the future. We can look at sets of sentient tools that we might think could be biased towards positive or negative average welfare:
1. the set of sentient tools used in harsher conditions,
2. the set used in better conditions,
3. the set optimized for pleasure, and
4. the set optimized for pain.
Of course, there are many other sets of interest, and they aren’t all mutually exclusive.
The expected value of the future could be extremely sensitive to beliefs about these sets (their sizes and average welfares). (And this could be a reason to prioritize moral circle expansion instead.)
These are all very good points. I agree that this part of the article is speculative, and you could easily come to a different conclusion.
Overall, I still think that this argument alone (part 1.2 of the article) points into the direction of extinction risk reduction being positive. Although the conclusion does depend on the “default level of welfare of sentient tools” that we are discussing in this thread, it more critically depends on whether future agents’ preferences will be aligned with ours.
But I never gave this argument (part 1.2) that much weight anyway. I think that the arguments later in that article (part 2 onwards, I listed them in my answer to Jacy’s comment) are more robust and thus more relevant. So maybe I somewhat disagree with your statement:
The expected value of the future could be extremely sensitive to beliefs about these sets (their sizes and average welfares). (And this could be a reason to prioritize moral circle expansion instead.)
To some degree this statement is, of course, true. The uncertainty gives some reason to deprioritize extinction risk reduction. But: The expected value of the future (with (post-) humanity) might be quite sensitive to these beliefs, but the expected value of extinction risk reduction efforts is not the same as the expected value of the future. You also need to consider what would happen if humanity goes extinct (non-human animals, S-risks by omission), non-extinction long-term effects of global catastrophes, option value,… (see my comments to Jacy). So the question of whether to prioritize moral circle expansion is maybe not extremely sensitive to “beliefs about these sets [of sentient tools]”.
Hi Michael,
Yes, that’s what we meant.
I am not sure I understand your argument. You seem to say the following:
Post-humans will put “sentient tools” into harsher conditions than the ones the tools were optimized for.
If “sentient tools” are put into these conditions, their welfare decreases (compared with the situations they were optimized for).
My answer: The complete “side-effects” (in the meaning of the article) on sentient tools comprises bringing them into existence and using them. The relevant question seems to be if this package is positive or negative, compared to the counterfactual (no sentient tools). Humanity might bring sentient tools into conditions that are worse for the tools than the conditions they were optimized for. Even these conditions might still be overall positive.
Apart from that, I am not sure if the two assumptions listed as bullet points above will actually hold for the majority of “sentient tools”. I think that we know very little about the way tools will be created and used in the far future, which was one reason for assuming “zero in expectation” side-effects.
Isn’t it equally justified to assume that their welfare in the conditions they were originally optimized/designed for is 0 in expectation? If anything, it makes more sense to me to make assumptions about this setting first, since it’s easier to understand their motivations and experiences in this setting based on their value for the optimization process.
We can ignore any set of tools that has zero total wellbeing in expectation; what’s left could still dominate the expected value of the future. We can look at sets of sentient tools that we might think could be biased towards positive or negative average welfare:
1. the set of sentient tools used in harsher conditions,
2. the set used in better conditions,
3. the set optimized for pleasure, and
4. the set optimized for pain.
Of course, there are many other sets of interest, and they aren’t all mutually exclusive.
The expected value of the future could be extremely sensitive to beliefs about these sets (their sizes and average welfares). (And this could be a reason to prioritize moral circle expansion instead.)
These are all very good points. I agree that this part of the article is speculative, and you could easily come to a different conclusion.
Overall, I still think that this argument alone (part 1.2 of the article) points into the direction of extinction risk reduction being positive. Although the conclusion does depend on the “default level of welfare of sentient tools” that we are discussing in this thread, it more critically depends on whether future agents’ preferences will be aligned with ours.
But I never gave this argument (part 1.2) that much weight anyway. I think that the arguments later in that article (part 2 onwards, I listed them in my answer to Jacy’s comment) are more robust and thus more relevant. So maybe I somewhat disagree with your statement:
To some degree this statement is, of course, true. The uncertainty gives some reason to deprioritize extinction risk reduction. But: The expected value of the future (with (post-) humanity) might be quite sensitive to these beliefs, but the expected value of extinction risk reduction efforts is not the same as the expected value of the future. You also need to consider what would happen if humanity goes extinct (non-human animals, S-risks by omission), non-extinction long-term effects of global catastrophes, option value,… (see my comments to Jacy). So the question of whether to prioritize moral circle expansion is maybe not extremely sensitive to “beliefs about these sets [of sentient tools]”.