The number I’ve seen people throw out a few times to estimate the number of people who identify with the effective altruism movement is 10,000, although I don’t know where that comes from. In one survey/poll I read (I think it was Pew or Gallup), 5% of Americans identify as being on the far left. 5% of the American population is 17 million.
If the American far left is going to change ideologically or culturally, it probably won’t be because of anything the effective altruism movement does. It’s just too big in comparison. I think there’s a sense in which you’ve just gotta resign yourself to the idea that many people on the far left will dislike effective altruism, insofar as they know anything about it, indefinitely into the future.
I think you have some interesting thoughts about messaging and outreach. For people who are concerned with paternalism or neocolonialism, or who are distrustful of charities, GiveDirectly is a great option. So, promoting GiveDirectly to people with these concerns seems like a good idea. I wonder also if explaining charities that do simple things like the Against Malaria Foundation giving bednets might be appealing to people, too. I feel like that’s so simple, it’s hard to imagine it somehow being secretly evil.
I’m personally fairly worn out and discouraged from trying, over many years, to talk to far leftist friends, acquaintances, and members of various communities (online and local). Despite voting for a social democratic party and having many strongly socially progressive and economically progressive/social democratic views, I’ve often had a hard time finding common ground with many people on the far left, to the extent that I’ve ended relationships with friends and acquaintances and left certain communities. Some of the views I hold that I was in several cases not able to find common ground on:
-Governments should be democratic rather than authoritarian
-It is morally unacceptable to commit terrorist attacks against civilians, or to murder your political enemies, and certainly not something to celebrate or glorify
-Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong were brutal dictators and not praiseworthy or figures to celebrate in any way
I find this very discouraging and depressing, and sad, and infuriating, and scary, and disturbing. I don’t know what to do about it. I have no energy left for this kind of engagement, so I’m not the right person to ask. I guess I’m just trying to warn you about some of the sort of stuff you might encounter and find yourself having to argue with if you do go down this road of engaging with the far left.
Overall, I find that getting into politics or topical “discourse” on TikTok or Twitter pretty much just sucks up time, attention, energy, and emotional stamina without spitting anything back out (like a black hole). There’s just an infinite amount of time-wasting and aggravation that can happen. And what good ever comes of it?
I wonder if there’s meaningfully such a thing as trying to make better TikTok videos or better tweets or if that’s like trying to make better cigarettes. I mean, in a sense, yes, you can obviously make better ones. There are lots of people who just do comedy videos on TikTok that I used to enjoy, and Hank Green does some good educational videos I see on YouTube Shorts. But I wonder if going in with the explicit intention of fighting discourse with discourse is going to get anywhere. (I commented on Bella’s quick take with my thoughts on this as well.)
(Please don’t interpret this as dismissive, I don’t mean it that way, but I thought about this comic.)
However, I would strongly wager that the majority of this sample does not believe in the three ideological points you outlined around authoritarianism, terrorist attacks, and Stalin & Mao (I think it is also quite unlikely that the people viewing the Tik Tok in question would believe these things either). Those latter beliefs are extremely fringe.
Two years ago, I thought these sort of ideas were way more fringe among the far left than I do now. I could just have terrible luck, but I encountered these sort of ideas way, way, way more than I ever expected I would. And it wasn’t just once or twice or with people all in the same social circle. It was at least nine different unconnected individuals or unconnected social circles/social contexts/communities where someone expressed support for at least one of these ideas. Since it’s happened so many times, it’s hard for me to write it off.
In the conversations I’ve had with friends I still have now and don’t endorse any of these extreme opinions, they’ve told me their experiences are similar to mine. So, still anecdotal, but still hard to just write off as just my bad luck.
I would find it comforting to see polling that found these to be truly fringe positions within the far left, so if anyone knows of any, please share it.
None of the nine examples I’m thinking of were algorithmic social media feeds (some were people I knew in real life, some were local people in my community posting online, some were small and semi-private online communities). However, algorithmic social media feeds tend to amplify extreme views. So, if you step into that arena, even if a minority of minority believes something (e.g. 10-20% of the far left which is 5% of the U.S. population, so 0.5-1% of Americans overall), it might get disproportionate attention (e.g. it might look like 10% of the overall American population believes it).
Overall, this is just a warning to anyone who wants to get into the fray of these sort of TikTok/Twitter short-form algorithmic social media debates with the far left that it might be disconcerting and crazymaking. And a concern that this format/medium, in general, may just not be a productive way of changing people’s minds about anything or having serious conversations.
The number I’ve seen people throw out a few times to estimate the number of people who identify with the effective altruism movement is 10,000, although I don’t know where that comes from. In one survey/poll I read (I think it was Pew or Gallup), 5% of Americans identify as being on the far left. 5% of the American population is 17 million.
If the American far left is going to change ideologically or culturally, it probably won’t be because of anything the effective altruism movement does. It’s just too big in comparison. I think there’s a sense in which you’ve just gotta resign yourself to the idea that many people on the far left will dislike effective altruism, insofar as they know anything about it, indefinitely into the future.
I think you have some interesting thoughts about messaging and outreach. For people who are concerned with paternalism or neocolonialism, or who are distrustful of charities, GiveDirectly is a great option. So, promoting GiveDirectly to people with these concerns seems like a good idea. I wonder also if explaining charities that do simple things like the Against Malaria Foundation giving bednets might be appealing to people, too. I feel like that’s so simple, it’s hard to imagine it somehow being secretly evil.
I’m personally fairly worn out and discouraged from trying, over many years, to talk to far leftist friends, acquaintances, and members of various communities (online and local). Despite voting for a social democratic party and having many strongly socially progressive and economically progressive/social democratic views, I’ve often had a hard time finding common ground with many people on the far left, to the extent that I’ve ended relationships with friends and acquaintances and left certain communities. Some of the views I hold that I was in several cases not able to find common ground on:
-Governments should be democratic rather than authoritarian
-It is morally unacceptable to commit terrorist attacks against civilians, or to murder your political enemies, and certainly not something to celebrate or glorify
-Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong were brutal dictators and not praiseworthy or figures to celebrate in any way
I find this very discouraging and depressing, and sad, and infuriating, and scary, and disturbing. I don’t know what to do about it. I have no energy left for this kind of engagement, so I’m not the right person to ask. I guess I’m just trying to warn you about some of the sort of stuff you might encounter and find yourself having to argue with if you do go down this road of engaging with the far left.
Overall, I find that getting into politics or topical “discourse” on TikTok or Twitter pretty much just sucks up time, attention, energy, and emotional stamina without spitting anything back out (like a black hole). There’s just an infinite amount of time-wasting and aggravation that can happen. And what good ever comes of it?
I wonder if there’s meaningfully such a thing as trying to make better TikTok videos or better tweets or if that’s like trying to make better cigarettes. I mean, in a sense, yes, you can obviously make better ones. There are lots of people who just do comedy videos on TikTok that I used to enjoy, and Hank Green does some good educational videos I see on YouTube Shorts. But I wonder if going in with the explicit intention of fighting discourse with discourse is going to get anywhere. (I commented on Bella’s quick take with my thoughts on this as well.)
(Please don’t interpret this as dismissive, I don’t mean it that way, but I thought about this comic.)
However, I would strongly wager that the majority of this sample does not believe in the three ideological points you outlined around authoritarianism, terrorist attacks, and Stalin & Mao (I think it is also quite unlikely that the people viewing the Tik Tok in question would believe these things either). Those latter beliefs are extremely fringe.
Two years ago, I thought these sort of ideas were way more fringe among the far left than I do now. I could just have terrible luck, but I encountered these sort of ideas way, way, way more than I ever expected I would. And it wasn’t just once or twice or with people all in the same social circle. It was at least nine different unconnected individuals or unconnected social circles/social contexts/communities where someone expressed support for at least one of these ideas. Since it’s happened so many times, it’s hard for me to write it off.
In the conversations I’ve had with friends I still have now and don’t endorse any of these extreme opinions, they’ve told me their experiences are similar to mine. So, still anecdotal, but still hard to just write off as just my bad luck.
I would find it comforting to see polling that found these to be truly fringe positions within the far left, so if anyone knows of any, please share it.
None of the nine examples I’m thinking of were algorithmic social media feeds (some were people I knew in real life, some were local people in my community posting online, some were small and semi-private online communities). However, algorithmic social media feeds tend to amplify extreme views. So, if you step into that arena, even if a minority of minority believes something (e.g. 10-20% of the far left which is 5% of the U.S. population, so 0.5-1% of Americans overall), it might get disproportionate attention (e.g. it might look like 10% of the overall American population believes it).
Overall, this is just a warning to anyone who wants to get into the fray of these sort of TikTok/Twitter short-form algorithmic social media debates with the far left that it might be disconcerting and crazymaking. And a concern that this format/medium, in general, may just not be a productive way of changing people’s minds about anything or having serious conversations.