Hi Sonia, thanks for your thoughtful response. Maybe this scenario will show an example of a more complex power dynamic than the one you describe having with your friends:
Jen gets a small grant from x and starts working with senior people at y company. She knows all of their names because they are well known people in z community, but doesn’t know them personally. She slowly gets to know them by working with them, and knows that having them as contacts, references, etc will be really important to the future of her career (perhaps she wants to even stay at this company longterm). She has spent a year working with them now, and her ability to get future career opportunities within this community, field of work, and/or company is reliant on them being good references for her, or longterm co-workers. One of the senior males begins to get extra friendly with her. At first it seems like normal friendly banter that may push her professional boundaries a bit further than she’d like, but after a few months it is clear that he is interested in her sexually, and that the other senior people in the group know about this, and talk about it in a way that makes it seem as though they are comfortable with it too. You put up with it and think it might be better to just ignore his remarks and go on with your work, because it isn’t clear what will happen if you say anything negative about how he is acting. You question yourself- is this normal? everyone else here seems to think it is normal? am I the odd one? am I a prude? …this story can be continued but maybe you can see where I am going with this.
I think whether Jen would be comfortable telling the guy off is dependent on many things- one example would be the structures in place that make it safe for her to do so (is there an independent person for her to go to that will make sure that she doesn’t lose career opportunities because of her not accepting his advances?). Another example might be whether or not the co-workers say this isn’t normal and that there are norms in place that make sure there isn’t professional/personal overlap at work.
Note: this is not a real story, and is not meant to be a reflection of the actual story in the OP, but just an example of how power dynamics can get messy.
Oh yes, I agree this would be a very different scenario than the one in the OP and with my friends, and I would feel much the same way you do about it.
I think these points in the OP are similar though (though once again the story is not related):
I should however note that:
We had met via EA and spent a good fraction of conversation time talking about EA-relevant topics
I was older and more central in the EA community
On other occasions, including early in our friendship, we had some professional interactions, and I wasn’t clear about how I was handling the personal/professional boundary
I in fact had significant amounts of power
This was not very salient to me but very salient to her
Thanks for sharing. I actually think that quote from the post describes my relationship with my friends very well except for the saliency and pressure part, although it’s vague enough that it’s possible it’s describing something different too.
I am updating that so many women seem to care so much more about power differentials than I do that norms that cater to them would probably be net positive because otherwise we would have far fewer women in the movement.
This isn’t really about sexual misconduct anymore for me, but a broader issue. If women don’t feel comfortable declining romantic interest from senior men outside the workplace, they must be abstaining from criticizing them in all sorts of other ways too. I’m very disturbed by the mass of knowledge we are missing out on if they are refraining from speaking up at the rate it seems like from the conversation around this post. Do you have any thoughts about how we can encourage women in EA to care less about power differentials outside of sexual misconduct problems?
I think the onus needs to be placed on the people who are abusing their power. There are ways to do this. If the community acknowledges that this isn’t ok, there can be a shift in the broader culture. People need to be aware these power dynamics exist and speak out against people who abuse them and I don’t mean the person on the receiving end of the abuse of power, but their colleagues.
Some concrete steps I can think of moving forward would be:
a) Workplace training on power dynamics and professional boundaries. b) An external source where complaints can be made where the people receiving the complaints do not have connections to the EA community such as personal friendships/collegial relationships.
I’m not sure if this answers your question at all, but I am enjoying this discussion and appreciate the way you are approaching our conversation. Thanks!
Edit: I want to make it crystal clear here that I’m not talking about sexual misconduct at this point, or denying that actual power differentials are a huge problem in EA. I’m learning that the forum requires a clearer writing style that I’m still new at.
The concrete steps you mentioned make sense to me, although my weakly held view is that people with less power caring too much about power differentials is an even bigger problem than actual power differentials. Maybe more workshops about overcoming imposter syndrome would help? I think epistemics would be weaker in the community if we don’t make a large effort to encourage people to be as assertive as I am in the face of power imbalances, but maybe that’s a price I’m willing to pay if it means more diversity? A lot depends on how tractable different interventions are, and ultimately I just care about getting people’s voices heard. I also appreciate how you’ve approached this conversation! I hadn’t said anything controversial on the forum before this weekend, and this has been much less scary than I expected.
(Sorry you are getting downvotes as soon as you affirm that commenting on the forum is less scary than you expected. The irony is real and hopefully you can laugh at it.)
Don’t worry I am. I imagine it was hard to tell I wasn’t denying that power differentials are a serious problem in their own right for someone who hasn’t spent a lot of time critiquing powerful men, or has and hasn’t had the positive response I have. I also think the fact that I was no longer talking about sexual misconduct specifically was lost in the comment thread. I’m glad I said it, because I found the feedback useful. Thanks for checking in!
The main reason I disagree voted your story is the way that it frames women—as helpless children, with a character so weak and insubstantial that having a few other people imply a certain belief about whether a relationship would be appropriate or not is enough to render them helpless and unable to determine their own preferences. If Jen can be convinced that she is wrong to reject a male suitor because nobody else in the community thinks that there is anything wrong with him propositioning her, how can she possibly consent to any sexual activity that takes place in human society? If your story is accurate, you aren’t making a case for better norms around understanding power dynamics—you’re making the case that women are manifestly unsuitable for the workplace. If the mere inference that a business/community thinks that a sexual approach is not by itself improper is enough to render a woman utterly unable to consent, then how can they meaningfully interact in a business environment, where they will be expected to interact with people of wildly differing status on a regular basis? How can a woman being paid to perform a job meaningfully consent to being given work to do by her manager? In the world you’ve presented in your story, they quite simply cannot.
Hi Sonia, thanks for your thoughtful response. Maybe this scenario will show an example of a more complex power dynamic than the one you describe having with your friends:
Jen gets a small grant from x and starts working with senior people at y company. She knows all of their names because they are well known people in z community, but doesn’t know them personally. She slowly gets to know them by working with them, and knows that having them as contacts, references, etc will be really important to the future of her career (perhaps she wants to even stay at this company longterm). She has spent a year working with them now, and her ability to get future career opportunities within this community, field of work, and/or company is reliant on them being good references for her, or longterm co-workers. One of the senior males begins to get extra friendly with her. At first it seems like normal friendly banter that may push her professional boundaries a bit further than she’d like, but after a few months it is clear that he is interested in her sexually, and that the other senior people in the group know about this, and talk about it in a way that makes it seem as though they are comfortable with it too. You put up with it and think it might be better to just ignore his remarks and go on with your work, because it isn’t clear what will happen if you say anything negative about how he is acting. You question yourself- is this normal? everyone else here seems to think it is normal? am I the odd one? am I a prude? …this story can be continued but maybe you can see where I am going with this.
I think whether Jen would be comfortable telling the guy off is dependent on many things- one example would be the structures in place that make it safe for her to do so (is there an independent person for her to go to that will make sure that she doesn’t lose career opportunities because of her not accepting his advances?). Another example might be whether or not the co-workers say this isn’t normal and that there are norms in place that make sure there isn’t professional/personal overlap at work.
Note: this is not a real story, and is not meant to be a reflection of the actual story in the OP, but just an example of how power dynamics can get messy.
Oh yes, I agree this would be a very different scenario than the one in the OP and with my friends, and I would feel much the same way you do about it.
I think these points in the OP are similar though (though once again the story is not related):
Thanks for sharing. I actually think that quote from the post describes my relationship with my friends very well except for the saliency and pressure part, although it’s vague enough that it’s possible it’s describing something different too.
I am updating that so many women seem to care so much more about power differentials than I do that norms that cater to them would probably be net positive because otherwise we would have far fewer women in the movement.
This isn’t really about sexual misconduct anymore for me, but a broader issue. If women don’t feel comfortable declining romantic interest from senior men outside the workplace, they must be abstaining from criticizing them in all sorts of other ways too. I’m very disturbed by the mass of knowledge we are missing out on if they are refraining from speaking up at the rate it seems like from the conversation around this post. Do you have any thoughts about how we can encourage women in EA to care less about power differentials outside of sexual misconduct problems?
I think the onus needs to be placed on the people who are abusing their power. There are ways to do this. If the community acknowledges that this isn’t ok, there can be a shift in the broader culture. People need to be aware these power dynamics exist and speak out against people who abuse them and I don’t mean the person on the receiving end of the abuse of power, but their colleagues.
Some concrete steps I can think of moving forward would be:
a) Workplace training on power dynamics and professional boundaries.
b) An external source where complaints can be made where the people receiving the complaints do not have connections to the EA community such as personal friendships/collegial relationships.
I’m not sure if this answers your question at all, but I am enjoying this discussion and appreciate the way you are approaching our conversation. Thanks!
Edit: I want to make it crystal clear here that I’m not talking about sexual misconduct at this point, or denying that actual power differentials are a huge problem in EA. I’m learning that the forum requires a clearer writing style that I’m still new at.
The concrete steps you mentioned make sense to me, although my weakly held view is that people with less power caring too much about power differentials is an even bigger problem than actual power differentials. Maybe more workshops about overcoming imposter syndrome would help? I think epistemics would be weaker in the community if we don’t make a large effort to encourage people to be as assertive as I am in the face of power imbalances, but maybe that’s a price I’m willing to pay if it means more diversity? A lot depends on how tractable different interventions are, and ultimately I just care about getting people’s voices heard. I also appreciate how you’ve approached this conversation! I hadn’t said anything controversial on the forum before this weekend, and this has been much less scary than I expected.
(Sorry you are getting downvotes as soon as you affirm that commenting on the forum is less scary than you expected. The irony is real and hopefully you can laugh at it.)
Don’t worry I am. I imagine it was hard to tell I wasn’t denying that power differentials are a serious problem in their own right for someone who hasn’t spent a lot of time critiquing powerful men, or has and hasn’t had the positive response I have. I also think the fact that I was no longer talking about sexual misconduct specifically was lost in the comment thread. I’m glad I said it, because I found the feedback useful. Thanks for checking in!
I’m curious if the people who disagree voted my story could explain why? What is it that you disagree with?
This post is a few days old, but sure!
The main reason I disagree voted your story is the way that it frames women—as helpless children, with a character so weak and insubstantial that having a few other people imply a certain belief about whether a relationship would be appropriate or not is enough to render them helpless and unable to determine their own preferences. If Jen can be convinced that she is wrong to reject a male suitor because nobody else in the community thinks that there is anything wrong with him propositioning her, how can she possibly consent to any sexual activity that takes place in human society? If your story is accurate, you aren’t making a case for better norms around understanding power dynamics—you’re making the case that women are manifestly unsuitable for the workplace. If the mere inference that a business/community thinks that a sexual approach is not by itself improper is enough to render a woman utterly unable to consent, then how can they meaningfully interact in a business environment, where they will be expected to interact with people of wildly differing status on a regular basis? How can a woman being paid to perform a job meaningfully consent to being given work to do by her manager? In the world you’ve presented in your story, they quite simply cannot.