I think there are tradeoffs here though (and I have also talked to women who like the status quo and I assume men do).
Just flagging that this sentence made me quite uneasy. Of course when you’re talking about removing the institutional power of an oppressing group (e.g. men, white people, humans, etc.) that group will not want to lose their power or status. This doesn’t make it any less important or moral though!
An exaggerated version of this might look like “There are some trade-offs to giving black people the right to vote. Most white people enjoy our political system the way it is, so we would have to consider what they would lose as well”.
If it’s not clear, I think this is the wrong way of thinking about it. I also don’t have any obvious solutions, but I think men should be much more willing to take steps to try correct unearned social power e.g. basic reading on feminist topics, don’t talk over women (or considering how much men are speaking vs women in a group discussion), be mindful of your social power, err on the cautious side for physical touching / sexual advances, don’t be defensive when you get called out, etc.
I think Nathan was referring to the tradeoffs of the suggestion in the original proposal, which includes a loss of sex and potential relationships that all parties involved desired to have. Although I am broadly sympathetic to the original suggestion, it’s not wrong to say it would have some costs incurred by both men and women (and both men and women have spoken up here to express concern about those costs).
Just flagging that this sentence made me quite uneasy. Of course when you’re talking about removing the institutional power of an oppressing group (e.g. men, white people, humans, etc.) that group will not want to lose their power or status. This doesn’t make it any less important or moral though!
An exaggerated version of this might look like “There are some trade-offs to giving black people the right to vote. Most white people enjoy our political system the way it is, so we would have to consider what they would lose as well”.
If it’s not clear, I think this is the wrong way of thinking about it. I also don’t have any obvious solutions, but I think men should be much more willing to take steps to try correct unearned social power e.g. basic reading on feminist topics, don’t talk over women (or considering how much men are speaking vs women in a group discussion), be mindful of your social power, err on the cautious side for physical touching / sexual advances, don’t be defensive when you get called out, etc.
I think Nathan was referring to the tradeoffs of the suggestion in the original proposal, which includes a loss of sex and potential relationships that all parties involved desired to have. Although I am broadly sympathetic to the original suggestion, it’s not wrong to say it would have some costs incurred by both men and women (and both men and women have spoken up here to express concern about those costs).