Thanks a lot for the elaboration, I appreciate that!
I don’t have time to read into the literature right now, just very quickly responding to give you some impression of my thoughts and points of potential disagreements (which I haven’t reflected on too much yet, so really interested in your responses):
I spontaneously weigh the evidence of fMRI recordings of “objectification” very litte (my background is in cogsci and I worked a little with fMRI, though far from having any expertise, just general impressions of fMRI data being really hard to usefully connect to interesting psychological phenomena), but I agree there’s definitely a “there” there where women’s physical features are generally much more central in terms of what men find sexually attractive than for men’s sexual attractiveness to women.
I would not use the term “objectification” to also include thinking of a person as a potential romantic partner. That seems to invite misunderstandings and paint things that are predominantly very beautiful (having a crush) in a problematic way.
(Definition from Wikipedia: “In social philosophy, objectification is the act of treating a person, as an object or a thing. It is part of dehumanization, the act of disavowing the humanity of others.”)
The men I talk to about romantic interestests (most among them EAs) don’t seem to me to be doing much objectification with their love interests, e.g. character traits/flirting experiences/deep conversations play a huge rule when falling in love, though of course physical attraction matters hugely as well.
Maybe that’s just my social niche though? I can imagine that there are men who basically actually objectify a women when they are sexually attracted to them, and that an affected woman would find it very offputting if a person they want to be friends with regularly just perceives them as a body that makes distracting noises.
It’s just that the men I hang out with are not like that and I expect the women they have crushes on would most often at minimum feel flattered if they knew how my friends see them, and not at all like they were dehumanized.
Hmm, fwiw I also feel fairly uneasy about reducing physical attraction to objectification, can’t immediately put my finger on why though.
avoid bringing up that you think she’s hot altogether.
From previous conversations within my EA subcommunities I have the impression that men talk too little about who they have a crush on. My current hot take is that it’s much easier to develop healthy romantic and sexual attitudes, norms, behaviors etc. if men would generally talk more openly about such topics, including who they find hot.
I’m generally fairly open and happy to talk about such topics and I feel like I can regularly give fairly useful (and kinda “basic”) romantic advice, and I have the impression that there’s often a strong desire to connect with other men about romantic feelings, experiences, etc.
E.g. I’d guess that if OCB would’ve felt less shame about his sexual and romantic desires (which I remember him saying in his apology) then he would’ve talked about them more with friends and he’d’ve been in a better position to evaluate what type of romantic and sexual behavior is cooperative and a good idea in general.
Thanks a lot for the elaboration, I appreciate that!
I don’t have time to read into the literature right now, just very quickly responding to give you some impression of my thoughts and points of potential disagreements (which I haven’t reflected on too much yet, so really interested in your responses):
I spontaneously weigh the evidence of fMRI recordings of “objectification” very litte (my background is in cogsci and I worked a little with fMRI, though far from having any expertise, just general impressions of fMRI data being really hard to usefully connect to interesting psychological phenomena), but I agree there’s definitely a “there” there where women’s physical features are generally much more central in terms of what men find sexually attractive than for men’s sexual attractiveness to women.
I would not use the term “objectification” to also include thinking of a person as a potential romantic partner. That seems to invite misunderstandings and paint things that are predominantly very beautiful (having a crush) in a problematic way.
(Definition from Wikipedia: “In social philosophy, objectification is the act of treating a person, as an object or a thing. It is part of dehumanization, the act of disavowing the humanity of others.”)
The men I talk to about romantic interestests (most among them EAs) don’t seem to me to be doing much objectification with their love interests, e.g. character traits/flirting experiences/deep conversations play a huge rule when falling in love, though of course physical attraction matters hugely as well.
Maybe that’s just my social niche though? I can imagine that there are men who basically actually objectify a women when they are sexually attracted to them, and that an affected woman would find it very offputting if a person they want to be friends with regularly just perceives them as a body that makes distracting noises.
It’s just that the men I hang out with are not like that and I expect the women they have crushes on would most often at minimum feel flattered if they knew how my friends see them, and not at all like they were dehumanized.
Hmm, fwiw I also feel fairly uneasy about reducing physical attraction to objectification, can’t immediately put my finger on why though.
From previous conversations within my EA subcommunities I have the impression that men talk too little about who they have a crush on. My current hot take is that it’s much easier to develop healthy romantic and sexual attitudes, norms, behaviors etc. if men would generally talk more openly about such topics, including who they find hot.
I’m generally fairly open and happy to talk about such topics and I feel like I can regularly give fairly useful (and kinda “basic”) romantic advice, and I have the impression that there’s often a strong desire to connect with other men about romantic feelings, experiences, etc.
E.g. I’d guess that if OCB would’ve felt less shame about his sexual and romantic desires (which I remember him saying in his apology) then he would’ve talked about them more with friends and he’d’ve been in a better position to evaluate what type of romantic and sexual behavior is cooperative and a good idea in general.