[This comment has been edited cuz it was long and rambly trying to be gentle and nuanced before, but now idk, maybe it just sounded more aggressive before because it was longer idk]
I’m sighing at your response of digging your heels in. I am glad [Qhapna] chimed in for himself. But I still think someone should drill in is just how much games of telephone can go wrong. It honestly sounds like you might do all this again in future.
I get the desire to post names. I am all about 100% transparency, particularly when done in great detail as a primary document (it looks like your document missed a lot of detail but you can always edit it to be more honest if you think it still matters. That’s your right.). But discretion and being careful about where and how we say things are also important because of the very real risks that people get not-true stories out of the vague-things-we-think-sound-true that all of us people (myself included) can be prone to say if we don’t catch ourselves. This is an outcome you should care about if you care about getting the truth out there.
Sooo, I had gone to your Twitter yesterday to check that there weren’t real substantiated claims of abuse made against [Qhapna]. I thought to myself “maybe she knows something I don’t” (I take abuse claims seriously, so checked at least one of your social medias before defending him out of the blue). Anyway, nothing about [Qhapna]. “All cool”, I thought. But yeah scrolling down a bit, I believe you participated in a game of telephone just a couple days before.
I was very much hoping you would be reasonable and either apologize or stay silent, because people make mistakes and I am not trying to shame you. But since you dug your heels in that naming DS on such a delicate thread was actually the right thing to do (potential misinformation be damned, I guess?), I will share this screenshot becasue you really ought to take seriously the suggestion that you should be more careful: [edit: I deleted the screenshot cuz I guess it was flashy and I didn’t think to just quote it. The username and pic had been obscured before though.]
The tweet said:
“Holy shit the EAs gave well known abuser Mike Vassar a 50k grant in 2022!”
Do you think this is a correct statement? Would readers of this forum post think this is correct? It probably soouunds roughly correct to those of us who have been following this entire thread, right?
I honestly had to look myself to be sure but, it (most likely) isn’t correct.
[Edit I just deleted a bunch if words about where I thought the misunderstanding happened trying to make it look reasonable]
But way more importantly for this topic, the wrong guy was named (by you or someone who told you that). (The right guy was Jacy I think). Please realize how predictable an outcome this was. Like, I’m not shaming you because I find the outcome so incredibly predictable, and I think the conversation was relevant in that case, like worth discussing even though discussing is hard. But as long as that outcome is predictable, it is not right to namedrop people on any post that is not actually related to them quite as casually as you did here. I’m trying to help you realize that even people you respect can get stories wrong and the truth that you want to get out there might not even get that far before transforming into something you never meant. Mistakes happen but like, false gossip is really really hard to stop once it gets started.You should care about risk of misinformation if you care about truth and helping people make the right decisions.
My primary point is that games of telephones are real and their leading to misinformation is predictable. So real and predictable you yourself have already participated in one pulled from this very forum post. We should care and minimize the risk by only discussing relevant things.
One last epistemic note: Lauren Maria asked for names if the major figure was within EA. I don’t think [Qhapna] counts tbh. I think you jumped the gun on finding him relevant even in that case. [Qhapna] has written elsewhere that he does not consider himself an EA. Some people consider themselves rationalists and EAs simultaneously. I admit there is Venn-style overlap. But [Qhapna] is not one of those. He is a rationalist through and through. [Even if naming him had made sense here, that caveat should have been included due to her request.]
Also, sure I’ll say it since I’m here. This type of claim “[he] has truly horrible opinions on what is a reasonable way to treat people” and the rest goes against competing claims that he has very high integrity and strict moral compass when it comes to the treatment of others. He has written many long pieces about this. If you haven’t seen them recently it might be because he blocked you.
Hmmm this is why I originally had a long paragraph about where I think the misunderstanding occurred. I think that someone serving as regranter is not the same thing as being given 50K.
[This comment has been edited cuz it was long and rambly trying to be gentle and nuanced before, but now idk, maybe it just sounded more aggressive before because it was longer idk]
I’m sighing at your response of digging your heels in. I am glad [Qhapna] chimed in for himself. But I still think someone should drill in is just how much games of telephone can go wrong. It honestly sounds like you might do all this again in future.
I get the desire to post names. I am all about 100% transparency, particularly when done in great detail as a primary document (it looks like your document missed a lot of detail but you can always edit it to be more honest if you think it still matters. That’s your right.). But discretion and being careful about where and how we say things are also important because of the very real risks that people get not-true stories out of the vague-things-we-think-sound-true that all of us people (myself included) can be prone to say if we don’t catch ourselves. This is an outcome you should care about if you care about getting the truth out there.
Sooo, I had gone to your Twitter yesterday to check that there weren’t real substantiated claims of abuse made against [Qhapna]. I thought to myself “maybe she knows something I don’t” (I take abuse claims seriously, so checked at least one of your social medias before defending him out of the blue). Anyway, nothing about [Qhapna]. “All cool”, I thought. But yeah scrolling down a bit, I believe you participated in a game of telephone just a couple days before.
I was very much hoping you would be reasonable and either apologize or stay silent, because people make mistakes and I am not trying to shame you. But since you dug your heels in that naming DS on such a delicate thread was actually the right thing to do (potential misinformation be damned, I guess?), I will share this screenshot becasue you really ought to take seriously the suggestion that you should be more careful: [edit: I deleted the screenshot cuz I guess it was flashy and I didn’t think to just quote it. The username and pic had been obscured before though.]
The tweet said:
“Holy shit the EAs gave well known abuser Mike Vassar a 50k grant in 2022!”
Do you think this is a correct statement? Would readers of this forum post think this is correct? It probably soouunds roughly correct to those of us who have been following this entire thread, right?
I honestly had to look myself to be sure but, it (most likely) isn’t correct.
[Edit I just deleted a bunch if words about where I thought the misunderstanding happened trying to make it look reasonable]
But way more importantly for this topic, the wrong guy was named (by you or someone who told you that). (The right guy was Jacy I think). Please realize how predictable an outcome this was. Like, I’m not shaming you because I find the outcome so incredibly predictable, and I think the conversation was relevant in that case, like worth discussing even though discussing is hard. But as long as that outcome is predictable, it is not right to namedrop people on any post that is not actually related to them quite as casually as you did here. I’m trying to help you realize that even people you respect can get stories wrong and the truth that you want to get out there might not even get that far before transforming into something you never meant. Mistakes happen but like, false gossip is really really hard to stop once it gets started. You should care about risk of misinformation if you care about truth and helping people make the right decisions.
My primary point is that games of telephones are real and their leading to misinformation is predictable. So real and predictable you yourself have already participated in one pulled from this very forum post. We should care and minimize the risk by only discussing relevant things.
One last epistemic note: Lauren Maria asked for names if the major figure was within EA. I don’t think [Qhapna] counts tbh. I think you jumped the gun on finding him relevant even in that case. [Qhapna] has written elsewhere that he does not consider himself an EA. Some people consider themselves rationalists and EAs simultaneously. I admit there is Venn-style overlap. But [Qhapna] is not one of those. He is a rationalist through and through. [Even if naming him had made sense here, that caveat should have been included due to her request.]
Also, sure I’ll say it since I’m here. This type of claim “[he] has truly horrible opinions on what is a reasonable way to treat people” and the rest goes against competing claims that he has very high integrity and strict moral compass when it comes to the treatment of others. He has written many long pieces about this. If you haven’t seen them recently it might be because he blocked you.
from private convos I am pretty sure that the tweet about mike vassar is in reference to this https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/7b9ZDTAYQY9k6FZHS/abuse-in-lesswrong-and-rationalist-communities-in-bloomberg?commentId=FCcEMhiwtkmr7wS84 (which is about Mike Vassar, not Jacy)
there may or may not be other things informing it, but it’s not about Jacy.
Hmmm this is why I originally had a long paragraph about where I think the misunderstanding occurred. I think that someone serving as regranter is not the same thing as being given 50K.