Thanks for clarifying! I think Training for Good looked into “scalable management trainings”, but had a hard time identifying a common theme, which they could work on (This is my understanding based on a few informal chats. This might be outdated and I am sure they have a more nuanced take). Based on my experience, different managers seem to have quite different struggles which change over time and good coaching and peer support seemed to be the most time-effective interventions for the managers (This is based on me chatting occasionally to people and not based on proper research or deep thinking about the topic)
I think there’s no substitute for role models and experience. Whenever I advise people in EA on careers, I always suggest spending some time in ‘normal’ organisations first
Hmm. Obviously, career advice depends a lot on the individual and the specific context, all things equal, I tentatively agree that there is some value in having seen a large “functioning” org. I think many of these orgs have also dysfunctional aspects (e.g., I think most orgs are struggling with sexual harassment and concentration of formal and informal power) and that working at normal orgs has quite high opportunity costs. I also think that many of my former employers were net negative for some silly which I think are highly relevant, e.g., high-quality decision making
Re: “I think many of these orgs have also dysfunctional aspects (e.g., I think most orgs are struggling with sexual harassment and concentration of formal and informal power)”
I agree with that, but I also think there’s something to be learned from dysfunctional orgs. Why are they dysfunction? How did they become dysfunctional? Why have attempts to make them less dysfunctional failed?
There is just as much — possibly more — to be learned from failures as there is to learn from successes.
On the whole I think there’s less to learn from failures than successes because there are many different ways to get things wrong, so ruling out just one doesn’t help you that much. The lesson is only valuable if you would have been dysfunctional in that specific way, and are now able to avoid it.
Working in dysfunctional workplaces can still be educational if:
their dysfunction is the biggest / most obvious trap to fall into, and learning to avoid it really does affect your chances of success,
they’re not dysfunctional in all ways, and have enough other good examples to learn from.
I suspect that in reality a lot of organizations are dysfunctional in ways that aren’t useful, e.g. incentive problems. While incentive problems do exist in EA, the incentive landscape is pretty different and I’d guess a lot of the traps don’t straightforwardly translate.
Thanks for clarifying! I think Training for Good looked into “scalable management trainings”, but had a hard time identifying a common theme, which they could work on (This is my understanding based on a few informal chats. This might be outdated and I am sure they have a more nuanced take). Based on my experience, different managers seem to have quite different struggles which change over time and good coaching and peer support seemed to be the most time-effective interventions for the managers (This is based on me chatting occasionally to people and not based on proper research or deep thinking about the topic)
I think there’s no substitute for role models and experience. Whenever I advise people in EA on careers, I always suggest spending some time in ‘normal’ organisations first
Hmm. Obviously, career advice depends a lot on the individual and the specific context, all things equal, I tentatively agree that there is some value in having seen a large “functioning” org. I think many of these orgs have also dysfunctional aspects (e.g., I think most orgs are struggling with sexual harassment and concentration of formal and informal power) and that working at normal orgs has quite high opportunity costs. I also think that many of my former employers were net negative for some silly which I think are highly relevant, e.g., high-quality decision making
Re: “I think many of these orgs have also dysfunctional aspects (e.g., I think most orgs are struggling with sexual harassment and concentration of formal and informal power)”
I agree with that, but I also think there’s something to be learned from dysfunctional orgs. Why are they dysfunction? How did they become dysfunctional? Why have attempts to make them less dysfunctional failed?
There is just as much — possibly more — to be learned from failures as there is to learn from successes.
On the whole I think there’s less to learn from failures than successes because there are many different ways to get things wrong, so ruling out just one doesn’t help you that much. The lesson is only valuable if you would have been dysfunctional in that specific way, and are now able to avoid it.
Working in dysfunctional workplaces can still be educational if:
their dysfunction is the biggest / most obvious trap to fall into, and learning to avoid it really does affect your chances of success,
they’re not dysfunctional in all ways, and have enough other good examples to learn from.
I suspect that in reality a lot of organizations are dysfunctional in ways that aren’t useful, e.g. incentive problems. While incentive problems do exist in EA, the incentive landscape is pretty different and I’d guess a lot of the traps don’t straightforwardly translate.