If my values say “I should help lots of people”, and I work to maximize my values (which makes my life meaningful) which category does that fit into? Does it matter if I’m doing it “because” it makes my life meaningful, or because it helps other people?
To me that last distinction doesn’t even make a lot of sense—I try to maximize my values BECAUSE they’re my values. Sometimes I think the egoists are just saying “maximize your values” and the altruists are just saying “my values are helping others” and the whole thing is just a framing argument.
Eh, I think there’s probably two separate motivations here:
Doing things that help other people
Doing things that make you believe that you are helping other people (and thus making your life meaningful)
And I think those motivations overlap substantially, such that you can do actions that fulfill both motives. But they do strike me as separate, such that you can do actions that fulfill one but not the other.
I think my crux is something like “this is a question to be dissolved, rather than answered”
To me, trying to figure out whether a goal is egoistic or altruistic is like trying to figure out whether a whale is a mammal or a fish—it depends heavily on my framing and why I’m asking the question, and points to two different useful maps that are both correct in different situations, rather than something in the territory.
Another useful map might be something like “is this eudomonic or hedonic egoism” which I think can get less squirrely answers than the “egoic or altruistic” frame. Another useful one might be the “Rational Compassion” frame of “Am I working to rationally optimize the intutions that my feelings give me?”
I think most actions-in-the-world result from a (very) complicated matrix of motivations inside the actor’s head.
I think it’s very rare for an action to be entirely driven by altruistic motivations, or entirely by egotistic motivations.
I do think that many actions are mostly driven by altruistic motivations, and many others mostly driven by egotistic motivations. (And I’ve found it personally helpful to get more clarity on when I’m acting from a mostly altruistic basis, versus when I’m acting from a mostly egotistic basis.)
If my values say “I should help lots of people”, and I work to maximize my values (which makes my life meaningful) which category does that fit into? Does it matter if I’m doing it “because” it makes my life meaningful, or because it helps other people?
To me that last distinction doesn’t even make a lot of sense—I try to maximize my values BECAUSE they’re my values. Sometimes I think the egoists are just saying “maximize your values” and the altruists are just saying “my values are helping others” and the whole thing is just a framing argument.
Eh, I think there’s probably two separate motivations here:
Doing things that help other people
Doing things that make you believe that you are helping other people (and thus making your life meaningful)
And I think those motivations overlap substantially, such that you can do actions that fulfill both motives. But they do strike me as separate, such that you can do actions that fulfill one but not the other.
Sure, but if one has the value of actually helping other people, that distinction disappears, yes?
As an example of a famous egoist, I think someone like Ayn Rand would say that fooling yourself about your values is doing it wrong.
I’m not clear on the crux of our disagreement, or if we’re even disagreeing at all.
I think my crux is something like “this is a question to be dissolved, rather than answered”
To me, trying to figure out whether a goal is egoistic or altruistic is like trying to figure out whether a whale is a mammal or a fish—it depends heavily on my framing and why I’m asking the question, and points to two different useful maps that are both correct in different situations, rather than something in the territory.
Another useful map might be something like “is this eudomonic or hedonic egoism” which I think can get less squirrely answers than the “egoic or altruistic” frame. Another useful one might be the “Rational Compassion” frame of “Am I working to rationally optimize the intutions that my feelings give me?”
I think most actions-in-the-world result from a (very) complicated matrix of motivations inside the actor’s head.
I think it’s very rare for an action to be entirely driven by altruistic motivations, or entirely by egotistic motivations.
I do think that many actions are mostly driven by altruistic motivations, and many others mostly driven by egotistic motivations. (And I’ve found it personally helpful to get more clarity on when I’m acting from a mostly altruistic basis, versus when I’m acting from a mostly egotistic basis.)