Rohit—if you don’t believe in epistemic integrity regarding controversial views that are socially stigmatized, you don’t actually believe in epistemic integrity.
You threw in some empirical claims about intelligence research, e.g. ‘There’s plenty of well reviewed science in the field that demonstrates that, varyingly, there are issues with measurements of both race and intelligence, much less how they evolve over time, catch up speeds, and a truly dizzying array of confounders.’
OK. Ask yourself the standard epistemic integrity checks: What evidence would convince you to change your mind about these claims? Can you steel-man the opposite position? Are you applying the scout mindset to this issue? What were your Bayesian priors about this issue, and why did you have those priors, and what would update you?
It’s OK for EAs to see a highly controversial area (like intelligence research), to acknowledge that learning more about it might be a socially handicapping infohazard, and to make a strategic decision not to touch the issue with a 10-foot-pole—i.e. to learn nothing more about it, to say nothing about it, and if asked about it, to respond ‘I haven’t studied this issue in enough depth to offer an informed judgment about it.’
What’s not OK is for EAs to suddenly abandon all rationality principles and epistemic integrity principles, and to offer empirically unsupported claims and third-hand critiques of a research area (that were debunked decades ago), just because there are high social costs to holding the opposite position.
It’s honestly not that hard to adopt the 10-foot-pole strategy regarding intelligence research controversies—and maybe that would be appropriate for most EAs, most of the time.
You just have to explain to people ‘Look, I’m not an intelligence research expert. But I know enough to understand that any informed view on this matter would require learning all about psychometric measurement theory, item response theory, hierarchical factor analysis, the g factor, factorial invariance across groups, evolutionary cognitive psychology, evolutionary neurogenetics, multivariate behavior genetics, molecular behavior genetics, genome-wide association studies for cognitive abilities, extended family twin designs, transracial adoption studies, and several other fields. I just haven’t put in the time. Have you?’
That kind of response can signal that you’re epistemically humble enough not to pretend to have any expertise, but that you know enough about what you don’t know, that whoever you’re talking to can’t really pretend any expertise they don’t have either.
And, by the way, for any EAs to comment on the intelligence research without actually understanding the majority of the topics I mentioned above, would be pretty silly: analogous to someone commenting on technical AI alignment issues if they don’t know the difference between an expert system and a deep neural network, or the difference between supervised and reinforcement learning.
I think this is the best Steelman of a certain position that prioritizes epistemic integrity. I also think this position is wrong.
The only acceptable approach to race science is to clearly and vigorously denounce assertions that one race is somehow superior or inferior, and to state that it is a priority to address any apparent disparities between races. Responding to inquiries on this subject with some version of “I’m not an expert in intelligence research, etc” comes across as “mealy mouthed,” to use Rohit’s words. Bostrom himself used a version of this argument in his apology, and it just doesn’t fly.
This doesn’t require sacrificing epistemic integrity. Rohit’s suggested apology is pretty good in this regard:
“We still have IQ gaps between races, which doesn’t make sense. It’s closing, but not fast enough. We should work harder on fixing this.”
EDIT: Overall, my main point is that Rohit is broadly correct in asserting that it’s a huge problem if the EA community ends up somehow having a position on the IQ and race question. It’s obviously a massive PR problem; how do you recruit people to join an organization that has been branded as being racist? Even more important though, if the question of IQ and race plays a non-trivial role in your determination of how to do the most good, then you have massively screwed up somewhere in your thought process.
EDIT 2: Removed some comments that prompted a discussion on topics that really just aren’t relevant in my opinion. I think we should avoid getting caught up arguing about the specifics of Bostrom’s claims, but part of my comment seems to have prompted discussion in that direction so I’ve removed it.
Matthew—many EAs seem to think that intelligence research is ‘this one topic with virtually no relevance to our actual goals’, but doesn’t make sense to me.
Intelligence research is relevant to (for example):
measuring harmful effects of global public health problems (e.g. IQ deficits due to parasite load, lead exposure, iodine deficiency),
identifying effective educational interventions (after controlling for IQ),
improving mental health (where lower IQ is a risk factor for most mental illnesses), and
choosing careers (e.g. 80k hours recommendations that should take each person’s cognitive abilities into account.)
General intelligence is the most reliable, valid, predictive psychological trait ever discovered, and it has pervasive implications for human flourishing, education, economics, mental health, physical health, careers, and many other domains.
Embryo selection for cognitive ability would have plenty of positive downstream consequences. If in vitro gametogenesis enables selection from large batches, there could be large gains from selection. If smart fraction theory is true, then widespread cognitive genetic enhancement even among a small portion of the population may have disproportionately large downstream positive consequences. Not discussing cognitive ability might be deterimental considering the benefits are so large. This is one cause area that I think is drastically underconsidered due in part to stigma.
I understand. But the idea that there’s some nefarious field of ‘race science’ is a straw man buzzword invented by activist academics who are opposed to any empirical study of group differences in any domain of science—even things like biomedical differences in responsiveness to different pharmaceuticals, or differences in susceptibility to specific diseases.
I would define race science as the field trying to prove the superiority of one race over another race, for the purpose of supporting a racial hierarchy.
So IQ differences between races = race science
Susceptibility to different diseases != race science
Differences in 100M dash times != race science (countries don’t choose their leaders based on sprint times).
Do you think there are absolutely no differences between races in how they score on IQ tests?
Do you believe in race science?
Edit: Comment below was deleted so I am posting what prompted me to ask this question.
My point is that “IQ differences between races = race science” is such a low qualifying bar that you might fall under it. It appears the author of this post acknowledges the existence of IQ differences. Many people do not dispute that there are disparities in IQ scores, as well as SAT, ACT, MCAT, etc.
I believe there exist gaps on these tests. And yet, I wish they did not exist. Many come to these conclusions not because they are “trying to prove the superiority of one race over another race” but because they are persuaded by the evidence. The people willing to discuss this are extraordinarily atypical due to extreme selection pressure from social stigma. This probably makes most sane people “in the know” avoid discussing the topic entirely.
Again, if there are no differences then open inquiry will reveal the truth and we should pursue these questions. If there are differences and its infohazardous, we ought to want to prepare by inoculating people from the idea that anything heinous follows from these facts. Eventually genetic researchers will demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt what is true. They will talk about ancestral populations when they do rather than races. Researching the genetic architecture of cognitive ability will inadvertently point to population differences if they exist.
If we hide data and do not expand datasets on cognitive ability and other culturally sensitive traits of diverse non-European populations, parents from those populations will have less ability to accurately select embryos with those desired traits. The sensitivity around these questions creates an unwillingness to do GWAS of IQ and even prevents scientists from accessing NIH data.
Since I am a strong proponent of cognitive enhancement and think IQ is a major driving force in inter- and intranational socioeconomic outcomes, I think stigmatizing and delaying research into these topics is extaordinarily harmful. Slight delays could mean the differences between global catestrophe and a longterm future. Massive cognitive enhancement would be extraordinarly important.
Wouldn’t an acceptable approach to race science be to demonstrate that races are actually all the same across every trait we care about and the racists are wrong? Why not fight bad science with good science?
I disagree, I don’t think there is value in race science at all, since race isn’t a particularly good way of categorizing people. At the moment, there are plenty of good scholars working in population genetics (David Reich at Harvard is a good example). None of the scholars I’m aware of use race as a primary grouping variable, since it’s not particularly precise.
David Reich claims that whilst we don’t currently have any evidence to suggest that one particular population group is genetically more intelligent than another, the claim that such a thing is impossible or even unlikely, is also incorrect. Theres currently not much evidence either way and there’s no theoretical basis on which to decide there aren’t any such differences either.
At the same time he highlights the importance of respecting all people as individuals when treating with them, irrespective of the distribution of various characteristerics among their population groups.
Rohit—if you don’t believe in epistemic integrity regarding controversial views that are socially stigmatized, you don’t actually believe in epistemic integrity.
You threw in some empirical claims about intelligence research, e.g. ‘There’s plenty of well reviewed science in the field that demonstrates that, varyingly, there are issues with measurements of both race and intelligence, much less how they evolve over time, catch up speeds, and a truly dizzying array of confounders.’
OK. Ask yourself the standard epistemic integrity checks: What evidence would convince you to change your mind about these claims? Can you steel-man the opposite position? Are you applying the scout mindset to this issue? What were your Bayesian priors about this issue, and why did you have those priors, and what would update you?
It’s OK for EAs to see a highly controversial area (like intelligence research), to acknowledge that learning more about it might be a socially handicapping infohazard, and to make a strategic decision not to touch the issue with a 10-foot-pole—i.e. to learn nothing more about it, to say nothing about it, and if asked about it, to respond ‘I haven’t studied this issue in enough depth to offer an informed judgment about it.’
What’s not OK is for EAs to suddenly abandon all rationality principles and epistemic integrity principles, and to offer empirically unsupported claims and third-hand critiques of a research area (that were debunked decades ago), just because there are high social costs to holding the opposite position.
It’s honestly not that hard to adopt the 10-foot-pole strategy regarding intelligence research controversies—and maybe that would be appropriate for most EAs, most of the time.
You just have to explain to people ‘Look, I’m not an intelligence research expert. But I know enough to understand that any informed view on this matter would require learning all about psychometric measurement theory, item response theory, hierarchical factor analysis, the g factor, factorial invariance across groups, evolutionary cognitive psychology, evolutionary neurogenetics, multivariate behavior genetics, molecular behavior genetics, genome-wide association studies for cognitive abilities, extended family twin designs, transracial adoption studies, and several other fields. I just haven’t put in the time. Have you?’
That kind of response can signal that you’re epistemically humble enough not to pretend to have any expertise, but that you know enough about what you don’t know, that whoever you’re talking to can’t really pretend any expertise they don’t have either.
And, by the way, for any EAs to comment on the intelligence research without actually understanding the majority of the topics I mentioned above, would be pretty silly: analogous to someone commenting on technical AI alignment issues if they don’t know the difference between an expert system and a deep neural network, or the difference between supervised and reinforcement learning.
PS, as always, I’d welcome anyone who disagree-votes on this comment to share what specifically you disagree with.
I think this is the best Steelman of a certain position that prioritizes epistemic integrity. I also think this position is wrong.
The only acceptable approach to race science is to clearly and vigorously denounce assertions that one race is somehow superior or inferior, and to state that it is a priority to address any apparent disparities between races. Responding to inquiries on this subject with some version of “I’m not an expert in intelligence research, etc” comes across as “mealy mouthed,” to use Rohit’s words. Bostrom himself used a version of this argument in his apology, and it just doesn’t fly.
This doesn’t require sacrificing epistemic integrity. Rohit’s suggested apology is pretty good in this regard:
“We still have IQ gaps between races, which doesn’t make sense. It’s closing, but not fast enough. We should work harder on fixing this.”
EDIT: Overall, my main point is that Rohit is broadly correct in asserting that it’s a huge problem if the EA community ends up somehow having a position on the IQ and race question. It’s obviously a massive PR problem; how do you recruit people to join an organization that has been branded as being racist? Even more important though, if the question of IQ and race plays a non-trivial role in your determination of how to do the most good, then you have massively screwed up somewhere in your thought process.
EDIT 2: Removed some comments that prompted a discussion on topics that really just aren’t relevant in my opinion. I think we should avoid getting caught up arguing about the specifics of Bostrom’s claims, but part of my comment seems to have prompted discussion in that direction so I’ve removed it.
Matthew—many EAs seem to think that intelligence research is ‘this one topic with virtually no relevance to our actual goals’, but doesn’t make sense to me.
Intelligence research is relevant to (for example):
measuring harmful effects of global public health problems (e.g. IQ deficits due to parasite load, lead exposure, iodine deficiency),
discussing cognitive enhancement (e.g. embryo selection),
identifying effective educational interventions (after controlling for IQ),
improving mental health (where lower IQ is a risk factor for most mental illnesses), and
choosing careers (e.g. 80k hours recommendations that should take each person’s cognitive abilities into account.)
General intelligence is the most reliable, valid, predictive psychological trait ever discovered, and it has pervasive implications for human flourishing, education, economics, mental health, physical health, careers, and many other domains.
Embryo selection for cognitive ability would have plenty of positive downstream consequences. If in vitro gametogenesis enables selection from large batches, there could be large gains from selection. If smart fraction theory is true, then widespread cognitive genetic enhancement even among a small portion of the population may have disproportionately large downstream positive consequences. Not discussing cognitive ability might be deterimental considering the benefits are so large. This is one cause area that I think is drastically underconsidered due in part to stigma.
To be clear, the “one topic” is race science, not general intelligence.
I understand. But the idea that there’s some nefarious field of ‘race science’ is a straw man buzzword invented by activist academics who are opposed to any empirical study of group differences in any domain of science—even things like biomedical differences in responsiveness to different pharmaceuticals, or differences in susceptibility to specific diseases.
I would define race science as the field trying to prove the superiority of one race over another race, for the purpose of supporting a racial hierarchy.
So IQ differences between races = race science
Susceptibility to different diseases != race science
Differences in 100M dash times != race science (countries don’t choose their leaders based on sprint times).
Do you think there are absolutely no differences between races in how they score on IQ tests?
Do you believe in race science?
Edit: Comment below was deleted so I am posting what prompted me to ask this question.
My point is that “IQ differences between races = race science” is such a low qualifying bar that you might fall under it. It appears the author of this post acknowledges the existence of IQ differences. Many people do not dispute that there are disparities in IQ scores, as well as SAT, ACT, MCAT, etc.
I believe there exist gaps on these tests. And yet, I wish they did not exist. Many come to these conclusions not because they are “trying to prove the superiority of one race over another race” but because they are persuaded by the evidence. The people willing to discuss this are extraordinarily atypical due to extreme selection pressure from social stigma. This probably makes most sane people “in the know” avoid discussing the topic entirely.
Again, if there are no differences then open inquiry will reveal the truth and we should pursue these questions. If there are differences and its infohazardous, we ought to want to prepare by inoculating people from the idea that anything heinous follows from these facts. Eventually genetic researchers will demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt what is true. They will talk about ancestral populations when they do rather than races. Researching the genetic architecture of cognitive ability will inadvertently point to population differences if they exist.
If we hide data and do not expand datasets on cognitive ability and other culturally sensitive traits of diverse non-European populations, parents from those populations will have less ability to accurately select embryos with those desired traits. The sensitivity around these questions creates an unwillingness to do GWAS of IQ and even prevents scientists from accessing NIH data.
Since I am a strong proponent of cognitive enhancement and think IQ is a major driving force in inter- and intranational socioeconomic outcomes, I think stigmatizing and delaying research into these topics is extaordinarily harmful. Slight delays could mean the differences between global catestrophe and a longterm future. Massive cognitive enhancement would be extraordinarly important.
Wouldn’t an acceptable approach to race science be to demonstrate that races are actually all the same across every trait we care about and the racists are wrong? Why not fight bad science with good science?
I disagree, I don’t think there is value in race science at all, since race isn’t a particularly good way of categorizing people. At the moment, there are plenty of good scholars working in population genetics (David Reich at Harvard is a good example). None of the scholars I’m aware of use race as a primary grouping variable, since it’s not particularly precise.
Would you support discussions and research into ancestral population differences?
Sure, I provided David Reich as an example of a population geneticist doing good work that I believe is worthwhile.
David Reich claims that whilst we don’t currently have any evidence to suggest that one particular population group is genetically more intelligent than another, the claim that such a thing is impossible or even unlikely, is also incorrect. Theres currently not much evidence either way and there’s no theoretical basis on which to decide there aren’t any such differences either.
At the same time he highlights the importance of respecting all people as individuals when treating with them, irrespective of the distribution of various characteristerics among their population groups.